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Thread: "RSCPA calls for an end to live exports..."

  1. #1
    si-mate
    Guest

    "RSCPA calls for an end to live exports..."

    http://www.kentonline.co.uk/kentonli...l_exports.aspx

    41 lame animals shot and 2 drowned. I'm glad the RSPCA aren't trying to save me :cry:

  2. #2
    Kent Connection
    Guest

    Re: "RSCPA calls for an end to live exports..."

    It's a shame that UK farmers look after their livestock to the highest standards in Europe and then they are let down by the transport system on this side of the channel, allegedly.

  3. #3
    Yale
    Guest

    Re: "RSCPA calls for an end to live exports..."

    Well they cannot say that a sheep didn't find another interesting way to die.

    I cannot believe that the lambs that were lame could not be treated,more like logistically it was easier to kill them.

  4. #4
    NZDan
    Guest

    Re: "RSCPA calls for an end to live exports..."

    Quote Originally Posted by Yale View Post
    Well they cannot say that a sheep didn't find another interesting way to die.

    I cannot believe that the lambs that were lame could not be treated,more like logistically it was easier to kill them.
    Yes Logistics would be the main reason. Plus it gives them a suitatble headline. I wonder if the SPCA will investigate themselves for drowning the lambs?

  5. #5
    petec
    Guest

    Re: "RSCPA calls for an end to live exports..."

    Yes, and when we had lambs running around with intestines hanging out torn out by dogs,none of the authorities wanted to know . I went to our MP to see if the RSPA could help and have heard nothing.

  6. #6
    corndolly
    Guest

    Re: "RSCPA calls for an end to live exports..."

    But surely you posted dont support live exports? I certainly dont , for any animal , and really the shortest time between farm and slaughter has to be best. Its up to us as breeders of our animals to make sure their lives and deaths are as trauimafree as possible ....isnt it?

  7. #7
    Barleycorn
    Guest

    Re: "RSCPA calls for an end to live exports..."

    Quote Originally Posted by corndolly View Post
    But surely you posted dont support live exports? I certainly dont , for any animal , and really the shortest time between farm and slaughter has to be best. Its up to us as breeders of our animals to make sure their lives and deaths are as trauimafree as possible ....isnt it?
    I agree, also no meat should be allowed to be imported that hasn't been reared to our welfare standards.

  8. #8
    Longlowdog
    Guest

    Re: "RSCPA calls for an end to live exports..."

    Under U.k law owners of livestock may transport for up to 8 hrs. What is the difference between 8hrs from Truro to Thurso and 8hrs between Dover and France?
    It is not the trade that must be stopped but the dodgy operators with substandard vehicles carrying animals not fit for transport and then putting them in lairage not fit for purpose. The law as it stands demands standards of operation and prohibits the movement of animals unfit to travel. All we must do is uphold the law and insist those travelling within our jurisdiction do the same.
    Longer journeys are similarly covered by their own laws and simply must be upheld. Failure to police current law is not indicative of bad law it simply demonstrates the failings of those who instituted it without ensuring adequate policing.

  9. #9
    crumpy
    Guest

    Re: "RSCPA calls for an end to live exports..."

    name and shame dealer and hualear whom transported them , obuviosly they were unfit to travel or be loaded ??? and also why were sheep allowed to drown by so called animal experts rspca. isant this franks neck of the woods maybe he can shed some light on the matter

  10. #10
    NZDan
    Guest

    Re: "RSCPA calls for an end to live exports..."

    Quote Originally Posted by Longlowdog View Post
    Under U.k law owners of livestock may transport for up to 8 hrs. What is the difference between 8hrs from Truro to Thurso and 8hrs between Dover and France?
    It is not the trade that must be stopped but the dodgy operators with substandard vehicles carrying animals not fit for transport and then putting them in lairage not fit for purpose. The law as it stands demands standards of operation and prohibits the movement of animals unfit to travel. All we must do is uphold the law and insist those travelling within our jurisdiction do the same.
    Longer journeys are similarly covered by their own laws and simply must be upheld. Failure to police current law is not indicative of bad law it simply demonstrates the failings of those who instituted it without ensuring adequate policing.
    +1

  11. #11
    Red Bull
    Guest

    Re: "RSCPA calls for an end to live exports..."

    Quote Originally Posted by Barleycorn View Post
    also no meat should be allowed to be imported that hasn't been reared to our welfare standards.
    Don't think any of us will live long enough to see that happen, free trade, world market and all that.

  12. #12
    KMA
    Guest

    Re: "RSCPA calls for an end to live exports..."

    Quote Originally Posted by Longlowdog View Post
    Under U.k law owners of livestock may transport for up to 8 hrs. What is the difference between 8hrs from Truro to Thurso and 8hrs between Dover and France?
    It is not the trade that must be stopped but the dodgy operators with substandard vehicles carrying animals not fit for transport and then putting them in lairage not fit for purpose. The law as it stands demands standards of operation and prohibits the movement of animals unfit to travel. All we must do is uphold the law and insist those travelling within our jurisdiction do the same.
    Longer journeys are similarly covered by their own laws and simply must be upheld. Failure to police current law is not indicative of bad law it simply demonstrates the failings of those who instituted it without ensuring adequate policing.
    +2

  13. #13
    Frank_the_Wool
    Guest

    Re: "RSCPA calls for an end to live exports..."

    The RSPCA only wants to kill animals to gain maximum publicity and therefore more funds for the organisation.

    The fiasco at Ramsgate and the consequences of what happened are clearly down to the RSPCA and Animal Health.
    We must all remember that RSPCA have no legal powers and in all events to do with health and welfare of livestock then the government body "Animal Health" is the competent body.

    The series of events that led up to this situation needs to be thoroughly investigated and the facts made public.
    Shipments of livestock have been passing through the Port of Ramsgate on a regular basis recently with only minor hassle from the protest lobby, most of the sheep have been travelling to abattoirs and finishing units in Belgium and Holland, although more recently shipments of store lambs have been going to France.

    The shipment where the problem occurred had originated in Northamptonshire and was loaded on a French four decker Pezzaioli, the vehicle was fully compliant and certified for cross border over eight hour transport. These containers are excellent pig and cattle containers, but are not ideal for sheep!
    I was not present at the time, but these are the facts that I have been given by those involved during and after the event.

    When the vehicle arrived at Ramsgate, the RSPCA insist on checking the animals now, even though they have no legal right to do so. A lamb was alleged to have a broken leg and another apparently injured, both on the same deck. These were removed and as per the regulation laid down in the "WATO" regulations covering animal transport were put down, presumably by a Vet, although this is not clear at the moment.
    Accidents do happen in transit, they shouldn't especially where there is a need to see the business conducted in perfect conditions

    The next chain of events are somewhat bizarre and where an in depth investigation needs to be published.

    It was decided by RSPCA/Animal Health to unload the vehicle and check on the lambs. This is clearly in contravention of all regulations as there were no facilities at the port. The regulation states that if there is any reason why the animals should not be allowed to continue on there journey thay must go to the nearest licenced staging post or the point of origin whichever is the nearest. In this instance as the nearest "Staging Post" is in Gloucestershire then it was better to send the lorry back to Northants if there was a genuine problem.
    Thre are no local lairages due to the efforts of the animal rights lobby.

    The sheep were unloaded between two buildings and a temporary blockade was made using whatever barriers could be found. The surface of the area was loose gravel, not an ideal surface to inspect lambs on!
    At the back of this temporary corral was a storm drain with a loose manhole cover, this apparently fell in and 6 lambs fell in and two subsequently drowned!

    Animal Health and RSPCA officials went through the animals in this completely unsuitable arrangement and pulled out a further 41 lambs that they claimed were lame. How on earth you could tell when they were running about on a loose pebbled surface I do not know.
    However if they were genuinely lame then they should never have been loaded on the lorry and could not have been passed by the Veterinary Surgeon who would have completed the Health papers for the consignment.
    If there was a fault here it needs to be thoroughly prosecuted.

    Apparently at this point the French lorry drivers were taken off and arrested for loading unfit animals and there vehicle was parked up.

    After a number of hours of indecision by the authorities and after another lorry had been requested to take the alleged lame lambs to be slaughtered at the nearest abattoir, this was mysteriously vetoed and a decision made to slaughter them at the port with no facilities.
    What is puzzling about what occurred next are the lurid photographs of the dead sheep covered in blood that appeared in the media! I doubt Animal Health took the pictures and released them.
    Also if these were correctly slaughtered using a captive bolt gun then there would not have been blood everywhere.

    The remaining sheep were eventually reloaded on another lorry and returned to the farm of origin!

    How long before we see the pictures of the dead lambs in the national newspapers in an advertising campaign for RSPCA funds!!

  14. #14
    Marches Farmer
    Guest

    Re: "RSCPA calls for an end to live exports..."

    You couldn't make it up! Who gets to prosecute the RSPCA?

  15. #15
    cozzie
    Guest

    Re: "RSCPA calls for an end to live exports..."

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank_the_Wool View Post
    The RSPCA only wants to kill animals to gain maximum publicity and therefore more funds for the organisation.

    The fiasco at Ramsgate and the consequences of what happened are clearly down to the RSPCA and Animal Health.
    We must all remember that RSPCA have no legal powers and in all events to do with health and welfare of livestock then the government body "Animal Health" is the competent body.

    The series of events that led up to this situation needs to be thoroughly investigated and the facts made public.
    Shipments of livestock have been passing through the Port of Ramsgate on a regular basis recently with only minor hassle from the protest lobby, most of the sheep have been travelling to abattoirs and finishing units in Belgium and Holland, although more recently shipments of store lambs have been going to France.

    The shipment where the problem occurred had originated in Northamptonshire and was loaded on a French four decker Pezzaioli, the vehicle was fully compliant and certified for cross border over eight hour transport. These containers are excellent pig and cattle containers, but are not ideal for sheep!
    I was not present at the time, but these are the facts that I have been given by those involved during and after the event.

    When the vehicle arrived at Ramsgate, the RSPCA insist on checking the animals now, even though they have no legal right to do so. A lamb was alleged to have a broken leg and another apparently injured, both on the same deck. These were removed and as per the regulation laid down in the "WATO" regulations covering animal transport were put down, presumably by a Vet, although this is not clear at the moment.
    Accidents do happen in transit, they shouldn't especially where there is a need to see the business conducted in perfect conditions

    The next chain of events are somewhat bizarre and where an in depth investigation needs to be published.

    It was decided by RSPCA/Animal Health to unload the vehicle and check on the lambs. This is clearly in contravention of all regulations as there were no facilities at the port. The regulation states that if there is any reason why the animals should not be allowed to continue on there journey thay must go to the nearest licenced staging post or the point of origin whichever is the nearest. In this instance as the nearest "Staging Post" is in Gloucestershire then it was better to send the lorry back to Northants if there was a genuine problem.
    Thre are no local lairages due to the efforts of the animal rights lobby.

    The sheep were unloaded between two buildings and a temporary blockade was made using whatever barriers could be found. The surface of the area was loose gravel, not an ideal surface to inspect lambs on!
    At the back of this temporary corral was a storm drain with a loose manhole cover, this apparently fell in and 6 lambs fell in and two subsequently drowned!

    Animal Health and RSPCA officials went through the animals in this completely unsuitable arrangement and pulled out a further 41 lambs that they claimed were lame. How on earth you could tell when they were running about on a loose pebbled surface I do not know.
    However if they were genuinely lame then they should never have been loaded on the lorry and could not have been passed by the Veterinary Surgeon who would have completed the Health papers for the consignment.
    If there was a fault here it needs to be thoroughly prosecuted.

    Apparently at this point the French lorry drivers were taken off and arrested for loading unfit animals and there vehicle was parked up.

    After a number of hours of indecision by the authorities and after another lorry had been requested to take the alleged lame lambs to be slaughtered at the nearest abattoir, this was mysteriously vetoed and a decision made to slaughter them at the port with no facilities.
    What is puzzling about what occurred next are the lurid photographs of the dead sheep covered in blood that appeared in the media! I doubt Animal Health took the pictures and released them.
    Also if these were correctly slaughtered using a captive bolt gun then there would not have been blood everywhere.

    The remaining sheep were eventually reloaded on another lorry and returned to the farm of origin!

    How long before we see the pictures of the dead lambs in the national newspapers in an advertising campaign for RSPCA funds!!
    truly shocking Frank

  16. #16
    Filthyfarmer
    Guest

    Re: "RSCPA calls for an end to live exports..."

    All the RSPCA want to do is raise funds and I'm afraid this will probably make them thousands. If it's how Frank says then the legals at the NFU need to act.

    As said the RSPCA have no legal powers, and what our animal health man told a meeting of farmers a while back was if you get a knock on the door was not to entertain them but tell them you will contact the animal health dept to resolve the problem. It will end up in front of the AH either way.

  17. #17
    si-mate
    Guest

    Re: "RSCPA calls for an end to live exports..."

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank_the_Wool View Post
    The RSPCA only wants to kill animals to gain maximum publicity and therefore more funds for the organisation.

    The fiasco at Ramsgate and the consequences of what happened are clearly down to the RSPCA and Animal Health.
    We must all remember that RSPCA have no legal powers and in all events to do with health and welfare of livestock then the government body "Animal Health" is the competent body.

    The series of events that led up to this situation needs to be thoroughly investigated and the facts made public.
    Shipments of livestock have been passing through the Port of Ramsgate on a regular basis recently with only minor hassle from the protest lobby, most of the sheep have been travelling to abattoirs and finishing units in Belgium and Holland, although more recently shipments of store lambs have been going to France.

    The shipment where the problem occurred had originated in Northamptonshire and was loaded on a French four decker Pezzaioli, the vehicle was fully compliant and certified for cross border over eight hour transport. These containers are excellent pig and cattle containers, but are not ideal for sheep!
    I was not present at the time, but these are the facts that I have been given by those involved during and after the event.

    When the vehicle arrived at Ramsgate, the RSPCA insist on checking the animals now, even though they have no legal right to do so. A lamb was alleged to have a broken leg and another apparently injured, both on the same deck. These were removed and as per the regulation laid down in the "WATO" regulations covering animal transport were put down, presumably by a Vet, although this is not clear at the moment.
    Accidents do happen in transit, they shouldn't especially where there is a need to see the business conducted in perfect conditions

    The next chain of events are somewhat bizarre and where an in depth investigation needs to be published.

    It was decided by RSPCA/Animal Health to unload the vehicle and check on the lambs. This is clearly in contravention of all regulations as there were no facilities at the port. The regulation states that if there is any reason why the animals should not be allowed to continue on there journey thay must go to the nearest licenced staging post or the point of origin whichever is the nearest. In this instance as the nearest "Staging Post" is in Gloucestershire then it was better to send the lorry back to Northants if there was a genuine problem.
    Thre are no local lairages due to the efforts of the animal rights lobby.

    The sheep were unloaded between two buildings and a temporary blockade was made using whatever barriers could be found. The surface of the area was loose gravel, not an ideal surface to inspect lambs on!
    At the back of this temporary corral was a storm drain with a loose manhole cover, this apparently fell in and 6 lambs fell in and two subsequently drowned!

    Animal Health and RSPCA officials went through the animals in this completely unsuitable arrangement and pulled out a further 41 lambs that they claimed were lame. How on earth you could tell when they were running about on a loose pebbled surface I do not know.
    However if they were genuinely lame then they should never have been loaded on the lorry and could not have been passed by the Veterinary Surgeon who would have completed the Health papers for the consignment.
    If there was a fault here it needs to be thoroughly prosecuted.

    Apparently at this point the French lorry drivers were taken off and arrested for loading unfit animals and there vehicle was parked up.

    After a number of hours of indecision by the authorities and after another lorry had been requested to take the alleged lame lambs to be slaughtered at the nearest abattoir, this was mysteriously vetoed and a decision made to slaughter them at the port with no facilities.
    What is puzzling about what occurred next are the lurid photographs of the dead sheep covered in blood that appeared in the media! I doubt Animal Health took the pictures and released them.
    Also if these were correctly slaughtered using a captive bolt gun then there would not have been blood everywhere.

    The remaining sheep were eventually reloaded on another lorry and returned to the farm of origin!

    How long before we see the pictures of the dead lambs in the national newspapers in an advertising campaign for RSPCA funds!!
    I assumed something along those lines would have happened.
    To my mind it is totally unacceptable that 45 lambs have been killed and the rest of the load stressed just because two were lame.
    As I said in my OP, I'm glad the RSPCA aren't on my side

  18. #18
    corndolly
    Guest

    Re: "RSCPA calls for an end to live exports..."

    This is truly shocking - but it doesnt change my mind that a live export trade is good , or even aceptable. 8 rs whether in UK or across the water , IMHO, is just too long. And lets face it - who polices how far they have to go once abroad , and how do we know their slaughter facilities are up to ours? Export on hook , not hoof [ to borrow a phrase from the horse world]

  19. #19
    Longlowdog
    Guest

    Re: "RSCPA calls for an end to live exports..."

    Corndolly,
    I see great merit in your point of view, however, like it or lump it as they say we are part of Europe and we are not permitted to act unilaterally any more. Indeed when the rest of Europe started making its own rules in the wake of mad cow disease we were very vocal in denouncing their actions. We can shout for Europe wide enforcement of the current laws but we cannot be two-faced and demand what suits us and denounce that which dosn't, unless we have the guts to get out of course.
    I appreciate this opens a whole can of worms but just as there are people who respect their stock and people who only view them as commodities there are countries even within Europe where livestock is still viewed very dispassionately and within the constraints of our union with Europe all we can realistically hope to do is enforce enforcement with the threat (unlikely) of them being penalised for failure and hope to educate them to the benefits of higher welfare standards. As individuals we can lose S.F.P for minor infringements of the laws but it would take a great deal of wrangling in Brussels to see whole countries penalised for welfare failures. In an ideal world this would happen, but then since when has Europe been an ideal world?

  20. #20
    Nithsdale farmer
    Guest

    Re: "RSCPA calls for an end to live exports..."

    Quote Originally Posted by corndolly View Post
    This is truly shocking - but it doesnt change my mind that a live export trade is good , or even aceptable. 8 rs whether in UK or across the water , IMHO, is just too long. And lets face it - who polices how far they have to go once abroad , and how do we know their slaughter facilities are up to ours? Export on hook , not hoof [ to borrow a phrase from the horse world]

    IF done correctly, in lorries which meet the standards needed and to the law dictating the travel the animals are by and large unstressed - 8hrs in a lorry across the UK is no differant to a lamb IMO as a 24hr flight to the other side of the world for a human if you see my point.

  21. #21
    NZDan
    Guest

    Re: "RSCPA calls for an end to live exports..."

    Quote Originally Posted by Filthyfarmer View Post
    All the RSPCA want to do is raise funds and I'm afraid this will probably make them thousands. If it's how Frank says then the legals at the NFU need to act.

    As said the RSPCA have no legal powers, and what our animal health man told a meeting of farmers a while back was if you get a knock on the door was not to entertain them but tell them you will contact the animal health dept to resolve the problem. It will end up in front of the AH either way.
    I'm amazed and shocked that that was even allowed to happened. Charges must be laided against the idiots that did this. Totally unacceptable in my opinion.

  22. #22
    Filthyfarmer
    Guest

    Re: "RSCPA calls for an end to live exports..."

    Quote Originally Posted by NZDan View Post
    I'm amazed and shocked that that was even allowed to happened. Charges must be laided against the idiots that did this. Totally unacceptable in my opinion.
    Yes, AH should bring prosecutions and uphold the law, but in this tragic case it seems the RSPCA have hijacked the proceedings and were given a major PR coup.

  23. #23
    NZDan
    Guest

    Re: "RSCPA calls for an end to live exports..."

    Quote Originally Posted by Filthyfarmer View Post
    Yes, AH should bring prosecutions and uphold the law, but in this tragic case it seems the RSPCA have hijacked the proceedings and were given a major PR coup.
    I think its the RSPCA that's at fault here and they should be charged, they purposely subjected the lambs to stress and then killed lambs for publicity purposes. Sickening.

  24. #24
    si-mate
    Guest

    Re: "RSCPA calls for an end to live exports..."

    Quote Originally Posted by NZDan View Post
    I think its the RSPCA that's at fault here and they should be charged, they purposely subjected the lambs to stress and then killed lambs for publicity purposes. Sickening.
    Couldn't agree more.

  25. #25
    Coo
    Guest

    Re: "RSCPA calls for an end to live exports..."

    What an absolute disgrace.... again RSPCA getting involved and making an "arse"....

  26. #26
    spin cycle
    Guest

    Re: "RSCPA calls for an end to live exports..."

    My local mart....in its report for last sat.......states trade was perhaps affected by 'the closure of live exports'.....are live exports banned????

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