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Thread: What width CTF systems work ?

  1. #1
    Clive
    Guest

    What width CTF systems work ?

    If a 12m header is not actually 12m and the unloading auger not long enough to reach the last wheel way it seem 12m systems are fundamentally flawed right now ?

    8m system means that you don't only get to use about 28ft of your 30ft header and I would suggest than any farm that a 28ft harvest system is sufficient for would be rather OTT with a 8m establishment system and the power it requires ??

    9m similar to 8 but at least you use nearly all of your 35ft header I guess but you into having to make kit yourself to suit anything but the common 4,6,8 and 12m sizes

    No easy way it seems ?

  2. #2
    Tom H
    Guest

    Re: What width CTF systems work ?

    Your right Clive, 12m isn't there totally yet but that is what I'm sticking with and aiming to use. Another good one is 30m sprayer 10m drill/cults (5m) and then a 10.5 m header and an auger that does reach.

  3. #3
    Clive
    Guest

    Re: What width CTF systems work ?

    can a system be based around 6m drill / cultivator ?

    wanting to reduce HP here and with it weight - beyond 6m tractors have to get big

    it's one of those things where the closer you look at it the more complex it gets !!!

  4. #4
    155tm
    Guest

    Re: What width CTF systems work ?

    Not as many acres here as you have to cover Clive so planned a 4.5m drill, 9m combine and roll, 27m sprayer system (36m sprayer would also fit). 1st Harvest with a hillmaster combine has seen us cut back slightly to a more realistic 4.4m drill, 8.8m combine and roll, and 26.4m sprayer grid.

    Drills are a 4m Horsch sprinter with an extra tine on each side and a second hand jd750 with coulter units unbolted, in four years time will we have learnt what type of drill is best suited to our situation to be able to sell both and buy one 8.8m unit?! Roll has clodboards, used to make very shallow stale seedbeds. Combine has a long folding unloading auger so the graincart only has to move about 0.2m off line to unload (still well within combine wheelings). Sprayer has auto section control with single nozzle sections on each end, it should switch one nozzle off to get to 26.5m wide.

    Much resistance to CTF is to be found, but when you have spent money on autosteer it seems sensible to use that technology to go the extra mile and use it for CTF?

  5. #5
    REB1952
    Guest

    Re: What width CTF systems work ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Clive View Post
    can a system be based around 6m drill / cultivator ?

    wanting to reduce HP here and with it weight - beyond 6m tractors have to get big

    it's one of those things where the closer you look at it the more complex it gets !!!
    Remove coulters and/or adjust the spacing to reduce the working width from 6 to 5.whatever meters to suit the not quite 12m header.

    I think widening tractor track widths to match the combine is a bit excessive, particularly when transport width is an issue, but adapting kit to suit the system makes sense when its a lot more complex than just making sure the drill matches the sprayer. Just dropping coulters can help provide some flexibility if you replace the combine header with another width without having to replace everything else at the same time.

  6. #6
    Clive
    Guest

    Re: What width CTF systems work ?

    Quote Originally Posted by 155tm View Post

    Much resistance to CTF is to be found, but when you have spent money on autosteer it seems sensible to use that technology to go the extra mile and use it for CTF?
    It does, now we have RTK it seems quite mad not to really but I can't seem to find a width system that fits with what I want to do very well :cry:

  7. #7
    Clive
    Guest

    Re: What width CTF systems work ?

    Quote Originally Posted by REB1952 View Post
    Remove coulters and/or adjust the spacing to reduce the working width from 6 to 5.whatever meters to suit the not quite 12m header.

    I think widening tractor track widths to match the combine is a bit excessive, particularly when transport width is an issue, but adapting kit to suit the system makes sense when its a lot more complex than just making sure the drill matches the sprayer.
    I agree - wide track widths are not practical really in the UK unless you are lucky enough to be ring fenced

    I don't really see that as a problem though as tracked combines and wide tractor tyres run quite close just making the wheelways wider than the might be in the ideal world

    even if drill is adapted the unloading auger still presents a problem with a 12m system and I also feel that 40ft might be a bit too wide for us really in small fields often with difficult access - 35ft is the ideal header width for us but how to fit that in without 9m drills and kit i'm not sure ??

  8. #8
    REB1952
    Guest

    Re: What width CTF systems work ?

    Even rarer round here to be ring fenced and growing cereals with enough acres within the ring fence to justify the investment in RTK, let alone 12m headers

  9. #9
    autopilot
    Guest

    Re: What width CTF systems work ?

    Both Dale and Weaving offer 9 metre drills. I think 9 metre is where I shall work towards. I can easily add 3 metres to the 24m sprayer without having to replace it, the combine is already there at 9 metres. I have 12 metre rolls which can be reduced in width. The combine spout will only need a small extension. That just leaves cultivation unless you go no till...

  10. #10
    Krampeman
    Guest

    Re: What width CTF systems work ?

    The reason CTF in this country is not widespread (because it ought to be) is exactly the reasons quoted above. It's just not that simple to get into. The idea of CTF is reduced wheelings, but reduced wheelings mean big wide equipment which needs big heavy tractors to pull it. Couple that with small field sizes and narrow roads and it sort of falls apart for most UK farms, which is why there are only a handful of people working it.

    The only CTF system that works at the moment for a large scale farm with off the shelf equipment that will retain a value is 10m. 8m is no good if running a 600hp combine so is not suited to a large farm and as already pointed out 12m at the moment just does not work properly.

    A proper CTF system should use exact multiples of machines eg 10m header, 10m drill, 30m sprayer with all equipment running in the same track markings. If you mix and match it then your making extra track marks so what's the point.

    You can buy a 10m drill from Horsch and it can come in 'strip till', 'direct drill', 'tined' or 'disced' form. HP requirement is not drastic if direct drilling. 10.5m headers are widely available as are 30m sprayers so this has got to be the way forward and could work around a 300hp tractor. If tractor power is less then the CTF system will be a compromise because you either need a small header on large combine or you en up with more wheelings in the field.

  11. #11
    155tm
    Guest

    Re: What width CTF systems work ?

    Quote Originally Posted by autopilot View Post
    Both Dale and Weaving offer 9 metre drills. I think 9 metre is where I shall work towards. I can easily add 3 metres to the 24m sprayer without having to replace it, the combine is already there at 9 metres. I have 12 metre rolls which can be reduced in width. The combine spout will only need a small extension. That just leaves cultivation unless you go no till...
    Dale and Weaving drills are both no-till, so you don't need to worry about the cultivation kit!

    Our cultivation kit was getting decidedly tired, so bit the bullet and replaced it all for a roll and clodboard no-till is the target here.

    I don't think the perfect direct drill exists yet so will experiment with a tine that we know and trust, and a disc that is apparently the answer to all our prayers!

  12. #12
    Feldspar
    Guest

    Re: What width CTF systems work ?

    These guys (of PX Farms) are not too far from us and have gone CTF this year at 11.9m.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E36wo...1&feature=plcp

  13. #13
    yellow belly
    Guest

    Re: What width CTF systems work ?

    8 m or 9m would be the most practical system any wider and the combine spout has to be very long and the law of diminishing returns set in (cannot get all the way down a field wirh out emptying twice in long fields )

    driving a combine at 8 to 10 k gives high out put when you have enough hp to drive the rotar 10k on a 9 m header is 90tph in a 10tonne crop

    this year any wider and it would go at asnail pace

    this feed would have been more even with narrower header and higher forward speed giving higher out put

  14. #14
    Alistair_Nelson
    Guest

    Re: What width CTF systems work ?

    Clive

    Interesting Article in the Pro Tillage magazine that arrived last week comes from same people as Pro Operator Sprayer Operator Mag. The article was about Jim Wilson of Soil Essentials and how he has basically gone to 2 widths 7.5m for combine on tracks and 6m for everything else.

    A few thoughts for you I have learnt whilst looking at this and talking to others. Obviously as we now all know a 12m claas bed is not 12m and all manufacturers seem to measure Bed widths differently which doesn't help.

    You may find a narrow framed combine may work better like you are running this season for you from a purist CTF point of you than a Wide Frame

    The working width of a 6m Topdown is not 6m even though that is stamped on the plate! Before you buy anything measure it don't believe anything

    If we all end up with perculiar tramline widths etc what happens if we need help and resale values of these machines.

    Perhaps a system based arround 6m cultivations, Drills, 12m Rolls and 24m sprayer and then a combine of what ever width you like as possible as its track width doesn't correspond to you tractors / sprayers anyway but with as higher spec running gear and the same with you chaser and most importantly the tractor on the chaser. This way everything standard.

    Yes I know purists will kick your ass for not going the whole hog but what cost would the last 5% be relative to the return available? I think CTF if like Direct Drilling / No Till it is an Ideal we are aiming towards

    Alistair

  15. #15
    dontknowanything
    Guest

    Re: What width CTF systems work ?

    As I always bang on about, 10m is the widest (and best) CTF system.

    10m Dale
    5m carrier (carrier 650 with some discs removed)
    [10m Horsch FG - if you are going to cultivate a lot]
    10.5m Claas header, with XXL auger
    30/40m sprayer
    10m rolls
    Fendt 93x
    Fendt 72x (other tractor makes are available)

    This system can easily be converted to 12m in the future when the 12.25m Claas header comes out, if they can sort out the auger problem. Bolt on larger wings to the Dale, put some discs back into the carrier, and switch sprayer boom to 36m.

    Who wouldn't go for that?

    As an aside, I don't see extended wheel track to be a big problem in a DD system. 2.5m wheel width is not much wider than a challenger, and if you have a Bateman then you can drive around the roads at 1.8 and expand in the fields. That's got to be 90% of your field operations covered for no more hassle than a normal width. You really need to run a chaser bin though.

  16. #16
    Clive
    Guest

    Re: What width CTF systems work ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair_Nelson View Post
    Clive

    Perhaps a system based arround 6m cultivations, Drills, 12m Rolls and 24m sprayer and then a combine of what ever width you like as possible as its track width doesn't correspond to you tractors / sprayers anyway but with as higher spec running gear and the same with you chaser and most importantly the tractor on the chaser. This way everything standard.

    Yes I know purists will kick your ass for not going the whole hog but what cost would the last 5% be relative to the return available? I think CTF if like Direct Drilling / No Till it is an Ideal we are aiming towards

    Alistair
    This is in practical terms possibly the best solution at the moment without spending a fortune or being stuck with large hp tractors in a system ? Afterall it usually dry at harvest !!!! So with tracks and chaser bin harvest compaction shouldn't usually be a big problem (sounds mad after this year though !!)

    10m plus sounds great on paper but is just too big for small field sizes to be practical

    Or maybe just fixed tramlines is as far as it is practical to go with this in reality

  17. #17
    Krampeman
    Guest

    Re: What width CTF systems work ?

    Here's an idea.

    939
    10.3m horsch FG running at 10m
    12.3m Simba rolls running at 10m
    30m sprayer
    10.5m combine header running at 10m

    All nice and easily achievable because 2nd hand 10m FG are available in Europe. You have the tractor and the rolls and combined header. Add 3m to either side of the current sprayer.

    Broadcast the seed either at 10m intervals or if not windy at 30m down the sprayer tramlines using the bredal as it will hold 5t.

    Or buy a 24m Kongskide boomed sprayer and add 3m each side.

    Could possibly fit the FG up with the seeder and make it the drill as well.

  18. #18
    graybo
    Guest

    Re: What width CTF systems work ?

    There is an outfit around these parts running at 11.66m.
    They use a modified Dale drill and had extra long unloading
    augers on their combines for this harvest.

  19. #19
    dontknowanything
    Guest

    Re: What width CTF systems work ?

    If 10m is too big then you can do the same system with 9m, and you don't need a long auger. Plus you can use a 9m carrier. I'm not sure though what width a 9m header actually is.

    10m can't be much too big for your fields, don't you have a 10.5m header? Or are you going to go smaller in the future?

  20. #20
    Alistair_Nelson
    Guest

    Re: What width CTF systems work ?

    Another thing no one has brought up yet is about stubble rakes size is not an issue but we know they work best at 30 deg to the direction of combining how does that work?

    I suppose where the opportunity for a good weed kill arises, overwintered stubble to a spring crop you would just run a carrier/fg through down your tramlines.

    Alistair

  21. #21
    dontknowanything
    Guest

    Re: What width CTF systems work ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Krampeman View Post
    Here's an idea.

    939
    10.3m horsch FG running at 10m
    12.3m Simba rolls running at 10m
    30m sprayer
    10.5m combine header running at 10m

    All nice and easily achievable because 2nd hand 10m FG are available in Europe. You have the tractor and the rolls and combined header. Add 3m to either side of the current sprayer.

    Broadcast the seed either at 10m intervals or if not windy at 30m down the sprayer tramlines using the bredal as it will hold 5t.

    Or buy a 24m Kongskide boomed sprayer and add 3m each side.

    Could possibly fit the FG up with the seeder and make it the drill as well.
    hmm, good idea. Where have I heard it before?

  22. #22
    Krampeman
    Guest

    Re: What width CTF systems work ?

    Quote Originally Posted by dontknowanything View Post
    hmm, good idea. Where have I heard it before?
    If you've suggested that before I've never read it I'm afraid.

    Just seems logical and not so 'hard core'.

  23. #23
    dontknowanything
    Guest

    Re: What width CTF systems work ?

    It looks pretty similar to my post two before yours - not that it matters. Are you suggesting though that all crops should be established by broadcasting?

  24. #24
    Spud
    Guest

    Re: What width CTF systems work ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Krampeman View Post
    Here's an idea.

    939
    10.3m horsch FG running at 10m
    12.3m Simba rolls running at 10m
    30m sprayer
    10.5m combine header running at 10m

    All nice and easily achievable because 2nd hand 10m FG are available in Europe. You have the tractor and the rolls and combined header. Add 3m to either side of the current sprayer.

    Broadcast the seed either at 10m intervals or if not windy at 30m down the sprayer tramlines using the bredal as it will hold 5t.

    Or buy a 24m Kongskide boomed sprayer and add 3m each side.

    Could possibly fit the FG up with the seeder and make it the drill as well.
    Ok for big farms, but go careful adding 25% to a boom and asking the rest of the sprayer to keep up and hold together is a big ask. It's the most used machine on a wheat rape Tenerife farm. It'll also be worth nowt with a farmer tactic bodged up boom extension.

    For me? Common sizes rule. 24m tramlines. Cos if I have a disaster I can get help from any number of 24m sprayers. How many 27m is there?
    4m drill and cultivations, 8m rollers. Workable with a common 180hp tractor, perhaps a s/h crawler for heavy cultivations. Kit easily traded and holds its value.

  25. #25
    Clive
    Guest

    Re: What width CTF systems work ?

    I'm not really sure that broadcasting crops is the route to consistently decent yields - it was tried by someone around here for a few years and he drills his crops now

  26. #26
    155tm
    Guest

    Re: What width CTF systems work ?

    Quote Originally Posted by dontknowanything View Post
    If 10m is too big then you can do the same system with 9m, and you don't need a long auger. Plus you can use a 9m carrier. I'm not sure though what width a 9m header actually is.

    10m can't be much too big for your fields, don't you have a 10.5m header? Or are you going to go smaller in the future?

    Claas Case NH and JD 9m headers are 30ft or 9.15m but you need a margin of error to avoid tearing your hair out, we settled on 8.8m for CTF because 9m was too tight for us.

    As the combine is generally the most expensive machine on the farm and normally under pressure when in use, it seems sensible to me to base your CTF system around using it to its maximum efficiency. Thus just under 6m, 7.5m, 9m, 10.5m and 12m are surely the most obvious options? Naturally there is more advantage to be gained the wider you go.

  27. #27
    dontknowanything
    Guest

    Re: What width CTF systems work ?

    Quote Originally Posted by 155tm View Post
    Claas Case NH and JD 9m headers are 30ft or 9.15m but you need a margin of error to avoid tearing your hair out, we settled on 8.8m for CTF because 9m was too tight for us.

    As the combine is generally the most expensive machine on the farm and normally under pressure when in use, it seems sensible to me to base your CTF system around using it to its maximum efficiency. Thus just under 6m, 7.5m, 9m, 10.5m and 12m are surely the most obvious options? Naturally there is more advantage to be gained the wider you go.
    I'd agree with that.

    CTF is possible with any width under 10m IMO, although it might not be a round number (who cares?). I think until 12m headers are sorted out then drills/headers (the two most important bits) have to be at least 8m for decent sized farms. 8 & 9m will give the biggest choice of drills.

  28. #28
    agricontract
    Guest

    Re: What width CTF systems work ?

    4.8 Meter fits with 24 meter sprayer 10.5 combine 10 meter rolls with a rind either side removed not daft tractor power needed

  29. #29
    Krampeman
    Guest

    Re: What width CTF systems work ?

    Quote Originally Posted by agricontract View Post
    4.8 Meter fits with 24 meter sprayer 10.5 combine 10 meter rolls with a rind either side removed not daft tractor power needed
    Yes but proper CTF uses the same wheelings for everything. So drill, combine, cultivator go up the same wheelings and the sprayer will go up every 3rd or 4th wheeling.

    Correct me if I am wrong but the idea of CTF is less wheelings in the field which can only be achieved by using wide equipment.

    Narrow equipment means more wheelings so what's the point. Irrelevant of field sizes you need to go wide to make CTF work properly which is why we are hearing of most of the small number of CTF adopters talking about 10 and 12m systems because anything less comes with compromises such as a large farm having to work on 8m system and not then fully utilising their combine.

    If a 24m sprayer can spray a 2ac field then a 10 or 12m drill can also work in it. Fact.

  30. #30
    dontknowanything
    Guest

    Re: What width CTF systems work ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Krampeman View Post
    If a 24m sprayer can spray a 2ac field then a 10 or 12m drill can also work in it. Fact.
    Totally

    (but wow, I'm glad we don't have any fields near that small, must be a real pain)

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