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Thread: 750a A bit more hardcore !

  1. #211
    Clive
    Guest

    Re: 750a A bit more hardcore !

    Cross slot is a great drill (the best even ?) but it prices itself out of the market

    the law of diminishing returns come in to this basically a 750a achieves 90% of what a cross slot can for 50% of the price

    and as you say what price timelyness ??

    HP requirement of a cross slot is also daft which defeats the point of using lighter, more frugal tractors

  2. #212
    Willscale
    Guest

    Re: 750a A bit more hardcore !

    Just some thoughts:

    All the wheat coming through very nicely now here. Delighted to see no erosion signs, capping or waterlogging and all the plants have through the mulches of rape and meadowgrass quite well. I think I'm on top of the slugs now too. But God (sorry Clive ) doesn't timing make a difference?

    Barley was a complete cock up. It was WB after WW which was after spuds. Quite simply I drilled it too late, the field has not structured itself properly yet and got very badly waterlogged. Its buggered unfortunately. I subsoiled the headlands and by the time I got the chance to drill them they were completely waterlogged too. If I'd ploughed I may have got a crop established but it still would not have built the structure I'm aiming for, for better resilience in the future. This will probably go to hated Spring rape, by which time the structure will have had another year to build and into WW.

    Lessons of the year for me:

    1. The 750 is extremely good at placement and establishment. Very little weed pressure so hopefully won't need any spray until Feb. Buy one, they are one of the best for longer term DD.

    2. Why I prefer continuous no till over mix and match techniques is because I don't think you can develop the structure necessary if you keep a tillage element involved. I'm a reluctant subsoiler but need to do a few more years of it to 'ease' some last few fields in. Sumo Grassland low disturbance one is fine for what I need. It takes 3/4 years to get good trafficability but if you have a bit of luck and dry years then you can get away with it.

    3. If your structure is good (after 3/4 years at least) you can definitely travel in conditions considered less than ideal and get good establishment. The stuff I felt I mauled in i.e. it was too wet I thought now looks the best. I had the structure (and worms and root holes) underneath to be able to get away with it. So for me DD is not about wet or dry, light or heavy but it is about planning ahead for soil structure.

    4. I used to not roll crops after seeding as I felt the firming wheel did enough for the seed but I'm going back to it now as I think it has helped against slugs. I've not ruled out rolling again later on but probably not worth it. If you have a bit of a mulch rolling doesn't seem to press more weed seeds in the ground.

    Right I'm off to pub Wales vs Argy and Ireland vs S Africa this afternoon.

  3. #213
    Willscale
    Guest

    Re: 750a A bit more hardcore !

    Quote Originally Posted by Feldspar View Post
    I accept the Cross Slot argument that it may give higher germination %s and more consistent performance and that it doesn't take many significant yield dents to even the cost difference up.
    Don't be daft mun! Cross Slot doesn't give any better germination.

  4. #214
    FarmerDan
    Guest

    Re: 750a A bit more hardcore !

    Quote Originally Posted by Willscale View Post

    2. Why I prefer continuous no till over mix and match techniques is because I don't think you can develop the structure necessary if you keep a tillage element involved. I'm a reluctant subsoiler but need to do a few more years of it to 'ease' some last few fields in. Sumo Grassland low disturbance one is fine for what I need. It takes 3/4 years to get good trafficability but if you have a bit of luck and dry years then you can get away with it.

    3. If your structure is good (after 3/4 years at least) you can definitely travel in conditions considered less than ideal and get good establishment. The stuff I felt I mauled in i.e. it was too wet I thought now looks the best. I had the structure (and worms and root holes) underneath to be able to get away with it. So for me DD is not about wet or dry, light or heavy but it is about planning ahead for soil structure.
    Bearing this in mind, Will, would you agree with me that I may be wasting my time trying to evolve a direct drill system that involves beet in the rotation?

    Unless I can get to a point where the beet will yield acceptably well if direct drilled, which in itself is doubtful but not impossible. Fodder beet this year is yielding 100+ t/ha and saving the day in a disappointing year, so will definitely not stop growing it...

    I'm thinking I may have to accept a mix and match system to accommodate my rotation.

  5. #215
    dontknowanything
    Guest

    Re: 750a A bit more hardcore !

    Quote Originally Posted by Willscale View Post
    Right I'm off to pub Wales vs Argy and Ireland vs S Africa this afternoon.

    did you have a fun afternoon then?

  6. #216
    Feldspar
    Guest

    Re: 750a A bit more hardcore !

    Quote Originally Posted by Willscale View Post
    Don't be daft mun! Cross Slot doesn't give any better germination.
    I did say "may". I've no firm opinion and am open to any argument. Care to develop your assertion into an argument?

  7. #217
    Jim Bullock
    Guest

    Re: 750a A bit more hardcore !

    We find that we get better germination under difficult conditions -ie WET(using a Kuhn SD triple disc drill) on the corners or on sidling land where the drill moves just a little bit more soil which suggests to me that our land would be better suited to a tined drill rather than a disc machine (its taken me 15 years to work this out..)..The "cut and squeeze" performed by a disc drill is fine on light land or where soil moisture conservation is an issue but on our more difficult land I think the "lift and loosen" performed by a tine is more appropriate... All we need is a disc to 'size' the residue so it can flow through the drill and we have the perfect machine..

  8. #218
    kpa
    Guest

    Re: 750a A bit more hardcore !

    Quote Originally Posted by FarmerDan View Post
    ...Fodder beet this year is yielding 100+ t/ha and saving the day in a disappointing year, so will definitely not stop growing it...
    Interesting, so @90% water that's 10+ t/ha dry matter about = DM in 12 t/ha wheat crop at 15%DM.

  9. #219
    FarmerDan
    Guest

    Re: 750a A bit more hardcore !

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bullock View Post
    We find that we get better germination under difficult conditions -ie WET(using a Kuhn SD triple disc drill) on the corners or on sidling land where the drill moves just a little bit more soil which suggests to me that our land would be better suited to a tined drill rather than a disc machine (its taken me 15 years to work this out..)..The "cut and squeeze" performed by a disc drill is fine on light land or where soil moisture conservation is an issue but on our more difficult land I think the "lift and loosen" performed by a tine is more appropriate... All we need is a disc to 'size' the residue so it can flow through the drill and we have the perfect machine..
    Sounds a bit like a Simtech T-Sem...?

  10. #220
    FarmerDan
    Guest

    Re: 750a A bit more hardcore !

    Quote Originally Posted by kpa View Post
    Interesting, so @90% water that's 10+ t/ha dry matter about = DM in 12 t/ha wheat crop at 15%DM.
    The variety we grow is more like 20% dry matter so a bit better than that, but the energy content is only 12 ME as against 13.5 ME for wheat. Anyway this is way off thread so I'll go back in my box now.

  11. #221
    REB1952
    Guest

    Re: 750a A bit more hardcore !

    Quote Originally Posted by FarmerDan View Post
    Sounds a bit like a Simtech T-Sem...?
    Or a Duncan et al.

    Has anyone compared one of those drills against (for example) a Dale or Seed Hawk. Do the disc make that much of a difference into bare stubble or chopped straw?

  12. #222
    Jim Bullock
    Guest

    Re: 750a A bit more hardcore !

    Quote Originally Posted by FarmerDan View Post
    Sounds a bit like a Simtech T-Sem...?
    There is going to be a competitor available soon... saw it being assembled in the manufacturers workshop..he tells me he has sold three already.

  13. #223
    Andrew Kerr
    Guest

    Re: 750a A bit more hardcore !

    Can it deep loosen if required Jim?

  14. #224
    knockie
    Guest

    Re: 750a A bit more hardcore !

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bullock View Post
    There is going to be a competitor available soon... saw it being assembled in the manufacturers workshop..he tells me he has sold three already.
    I'm amazed he sells any! Tried to call them over a two year period, email'd them enquired at shows etc and never heard a thing back. Got fed up, I'm sure they work well though.
    Cheers. SD.

  15. #225
    Clive
    Guest

    Re: 750a A bit more hardcore !

    Quote Originally Posted by FarmerDan View Post
    Bearing this in mind, Will, would you agree with me that I may be wasting my time trying to evolve a direct drill system that involves beet in the rotation?

    :
    I reckon that "proper" DD is a bit of a waste of time if you have roots in your rotation - you will just get soil starting to come right and then a potato or beat crop will spoil everything and put things back to square one !

    We currently let land for potatoes but if I see DD working for us then the potatoes will go, they don't pay enough to ignore the damage done to a dd'ed soil that is in good condition

    All is not lost though - Strip till drills like the Claydon Mzuri and Sumo etc are the right thing for farms that have roots in the rotation - they will never see the benefits of low disturbance systems but they are a step in the right direction

  16. #226
    peterraugland
    Guest

    Re: 750a A bit more hardcore !

    Soon we will be able to strip-till potatoes, using RTK to have the potatoes growing in the same strip 1 in 4 years or something. There are even ways to no-till potatoes in to i.e. a convercrop, flailing the residue before emergence - but harvesting is another matter....

    You would need well drained land... (-;

  17. #227
    York
    Guest

    Re: 750a A bit more hardcore !

    Quote Originally Posted by Clive View Post
    I reckon that "proper" DD is a bit of a waste of time if you have roots in your rotation - you will just get soil starting to come right and then a potato or beat crop will spoil everything and put things back to square one !

    We currently let land for potatoes but if I see DD working for us then the potatoes will go, they don't pay enough to ignore the damage done to a dd'ed soil that is in good condition

    All is not lost though - Strip till drills like the Claydon Mzuri and Sumo etc are the right thing for farms that have roots in the rotation - they will never see the benefits of low disturbance systems but they are a step in the right direction
    As so many things lies the truth in the middle. Like Parcelsus said: "The dosage makes the poison".
    don't remember which time was needed, but s.th. like 5 to 7 years break between a "root" crop with a lot of tillage / digging did have no negative effect on the OM when the rest of the years the OM was build up by No till. If we look at our percentage in regions we don't exceed this amount in many regions. I said by purpose: regions, not single farms. That is a total different thing.
    Cheers
    York-Th.
    p.s. maybe we should also start to think if potatoes are good for human nutrition. But that is also a total different subject.

  18. #228
    Willscale
    Guest

    Re: 750a A bit more hardcore !

    Quote Originally Posted by Clive View Post
    I reckon that "proper" DD is a bit of a waste of time if you have roots in your rotation - you will just get soil starting to come right and then a potato or beat crop will spoil everything and put things back to square one !

    We currently let land for potatoes but if I see DD working for us then the potatoes will go, they don't pay enough to ignore the damage done to a dd'ed soil that is in good condition

    All is not lost though - Strip till drills like the Claydon Mzuri and Sumo etc are the right thing for farms that have roots in the rotation - they will never see the benefits of low disturbance systems but they are a step in the right direction
    It didn't work for me as I found the first year after spuds was ok but then the soil was slumped for a couple of years after. Not just the amount of tillage, traffic etc. but I do wonder does mocap/vydate blitz a lot of good things as well.

    But that said you could still use a two pass system involving a john deere drill and plough before spuds and then just subsoil before cereals and subsoil/drill rape if you wanted. I personally wouldn't go the strip till route, better to keep two pieces of cheaper equipment like a subsoiler/flatlift and disc drill.

  19. #229
    FarmerDan
    Guest

    Re: 750a A bit more hardcore !

    Quote Originally Posted by Willscale View Post
    It didn't work for me as I found the first year after spuds was ok but then the soil was slumped for a couple of years after. Not just the amount of tillage, traffic etc. but I do wonder does mocap/vydate blitz a lot of good things as well.

    But that said you could still use a two pass system involving a john deere drill and plough before spuds and then just subsoil before cereals and subsoil/drill rape if you wanted. I personally wouldn't go the strip till route, better to keep two pieces of cheaper equipment like a subsoiler/flatlift and disc drill.
    Not sure I buy into this idea that direct disc drills can be used on ploughed ground - how do you get even seed depth what with the drill tractor's wheelings etc? Maybe the 750a copes better than my Kuhn?

  20. #230
    Willscale
    Guest

    Re: 750a A bit more hardcore !

    Quote Originally Posted by FarmerDan View Post
    Not sure I buy into this idea that direct disc drills can be used on ploughed ground - how do you get even seed depth what with the drill tractor's wheelings etc? Maybe the 750a copes better than my Kuhn?
    They don't.

    What I was saying is you can plough one in five for your beet/spuds or whatever and then just keep the subsoil cultivator which leaves a firm level seedbed for drilling into for maybe 3 out of 4 of the other crops. And if you need to plough again after beet or spuds because of the carnage then just level out with whatever tool you have - power harrow, cultivator etc.

    Disc drill will drill in all conditions as long as its firmed. A direct drill will drill in all conditions, a combi, min till or strip till drill can't.

  21. #231
    s.chiles
    Guest

    Re: 750a A bit more hardcore !

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bullock View Post
    We find that we get better germination under difficult conditions -ie WET(using a Kuhn SD triple disc drill) on the corners or on sidling land where the drill moves just a little bit more soil which suggests to me that our land would be better suited to a tined drill rather than a disc machine (its taken me 15 years to work this out..)..The "cut and squeeze" performed by a disc drill is fine on light land or where soil moisture conservation is an issue but on our more difficult land I think the "lift and loosen" performed by a tine is more appropriate... All we need is a disc to 'size' the residue so it can flow through the drill and we have the perfect machine..
    Are you sure? Could it be that on the sloping ground / corners the drill is only compacting one side wall of the slot instead of it's normal two sides. Maybe a single disc drill with the Guttler wheel would break the side wall compaction achieving the same or better result than the tine ( as it could cope with more trash ) without the soil disturbance.

  22. #232
    Ploughman1963
    Guest

    Re: 750a A bit more hardcore !

    Quote Originally Posted by REB1952 View Post
    Or a Duncan et al.

    Has anyone compared one of those drills against (for example) a Dale or Seed Hawk. Do the disc make that much of a difference into bare stubble or chopped straw?
    Our Duncan works well in bare stubble but where there is any long loose straw or where the drill is following in line with the combine (headlands), then blocking has been a problem - not a dead loss, but a problem.

  23. #233
    Feldspar
    Guest

    Re: 750a A bit more hardcore !

    Quote Originally Posted by York View Post
    As so many things lies the truth in the middle. Like Parcelsus said: "The dosage makes the poison".
    don't remember which time was needed, but s.th. like 5 to 7 years break between a "root" crop with a lot of tillage / digging did have no negative effect on the OM when the rest of the years the OM was build up by No till. If we look at our percentage in regions we don't exceed this amount in many regions. I said by purpose: regions, not single farms. That is a total different thing.
    Cheers
    York-Th.
    p.s. maybe we should also start to think if potatoes are good for human nutrition. But that is also a total different subject.
    But what about your fish and chips?!

  24. #234
    York
    Guest

    Re: 750a A bit more hardcore !

    Quote Originally Posted by Feldspar View Post
    But what about your fish and chips?!
    typical consultant reply:
    DEPENDS :-)
    What is the main dish? For me it's the fish. :-)
    Oh how I look forward to February, Fish & Chips. Will at least have it once than, hopefully twice.
    And some Ale, if not driving Before the Ale a build up on Mg.
    Cheers
    York-Th.

  25. #235
    Tomsewell
    Guest

    Re: 750a A bit more hardcore !

    Quote Originally Posted by s.chiles View Post
    Are you sure? Could it be that on the sloping ground / corners the drill is only compacting one side wall of the slot instead of it's normal two sides. Maybe a single disc drill with the Guttler wheel would break the side wall compaction achieving the same or better result than the tine ( as it could cope with more trash ) without the soil disturbance.
    Well it's quite amazing how well the 750 does go when's its quite frankly to wet and sticky
    Yesterday the right honourable Lord Chiles of Edenbridge crossed probably twenty parishes and planted just over 50 acres for us mere peasants with his 750a.
    Conditions weren't ideal but we managed to get seeds in the slot and then managed to find a use for our (up until then) unused (Claydon) straw harrow harrowing across the slots at an angle of approx 30 degrees which covered any seed exposed very quickly and without (hopefully) ruining soil structure.
    Going to wait for it to emerge before I write any more gushing fan mail for fear of Simons head exploding
    Slug pellets on the top today and the difference between half the field dd with Horsch co4 and the other half with 750a is quite remarkable!

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