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Thread: No future for Wind Turbines

  1. #1
    flumpy
    Guest

    No future for Wind Turbines

    It is clear from the soundbites coming from the politicians that there is no future for on-shore wind, what was it ? 'Enough is enough' or words to that effect from the energy minister.

    The future is in hydro and AD...........

  2. #2
    flumpy
    Guest

    Re: No future for Wind Turbines

    Quote Originally Posted by flumpy View Post
    It is clear from the soundbites coming from the politicians that there is no future for on-shore wind, what was it ? 'Enough is enough' or words to that effect from the energy minister.

    The future is in hydro and AD...........

    See:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/ene...-minister.html

  3. #3
    Pedders
    Guest

    Re: No future for Wind Turbines

    Quote Originally Posted by flumpy View Post
    It is clear from the soundbites coming from the politicians that there is no future for on-shore wind, what was it ? 'Enough is enough' or words to that effect from the energy minister.

    The future is in hydro and AD...........
    Whilst you are absolutely right about wind turbines having no future.....neither does hydro or ad if it requires subsidy to be competetive.....in reality the future is shale gas ...it's abundant ...power stations are cheap to build and run and best of all requiring no subsidy ...already halved electricity costs in the usa

  4. #4
    RGT
    Guest

    Re: No future for Wind Turbines

    Quote Originally Posted by flumpy View Post
    It is clear from the soundbites coming from the politicians that there is no future for on-shore wind, what was it ? 'Enough is enough' or words to that effect from the energy minister.

    The future is in hydro and AD...........
    Tidel-but NO ONE can get their heads around it?

    Constant power-back and for for ever and ever???

  5. #5
    farmerjames
    Guest

    Re: No future for Wind Turbines

    Coal, gas and nuclear all receive subsidies - its just not direct however so isn't dressed up as subsidy.

    Gas generation is relatively cheap yes but not quite as easy in practice to implement in the UK as the US. Coal bed methane however from a lot of the old collieries seems sensible and a big potential for generation.

    I can't agree with the use of farmland biomas for AD, it is however an excellent idea to use a waste product like poultry muck, waste food etc. If you need around 1000 acres to feed an AD plant but only one 2mw turbine or 15 acres of solar panels to do the same job surely thats a better use of the land? Plus there is no or very little associated carbon useage - once you build a solar farm or turbine you pretty much leave it, biomass production requires machinery, fuel etc, better to put that effort into food production i think.

  6. #6
    Pedders
    Guest

    Re: No future for Wind Turbines

    Seriously it's not a matter of if we have shale gas and oil in the uk but when and all delays mean is that we slip further behind economically......given the artificially high cost of power in the euro zone and Uk because of the green subsidy schemes it's really no wonder that growth has stagnated

  7. #7
    big_phil
    Guest

    Red face Re: No future for Wind Turbines

    SOLAR rules

  8. #8
    its yourself
    Guest

    Re: No future for Wind Turbines

    Quote Originally Posted by Pedders View Post
    Whilst you are absolutely right about wind turbines having no future.....neither does hydro or ad if it requires subsidy to be competetive.....in reality the future is shale gas ...it's abundant ...power stations are cheap to build and run and best of all requiring no subsidy ...already halved electricity costs in the usa

    Quote Originally Posted by Pedders View Post
    Seriously it's not a matter of if we have shale gas and oil in the uk but when and all delays mean is that we slip further behind economically......given the artificially high cost of power in the euro zone and Uk because of the green subsidy schemes it's really no wonder that growth has stagnated

    Pedders I know you are never one to let reality intrude on your evangelical zealotry in support of shale gas

    But you need to understand that the present idiocy from the omnishambles of incompetents in your government has also destroyed confidence in shale gas and nuclear stations in England and Wales.

    Stupidity deters investment and destroys business confidence. No one can think the present situation in your country is acceptible.

    That is why Scottish industry has pressed on with renewable investment and welcomes the cash you have lost.

    Thanks

  9. #9
    BigAndy
    Guest

    Re: No future for Wind Turbines

    Quote Originally Posted by big_phil View Post
    SOLAR rules
    Whilst solar does have its place Phil, if you look at output its just not in same ball park as even small scale turbines.

    A 4KW solar round here will produce at most 3500KW per year a turbine like mine will produce around 30000 and call it 12 KW so for the same output you would need to install around 25KW say which is about 100 panels. Besides being more expensive it alos take up one hell of a lot of room.

    If you move up to bigger turbines the difference get progressivly larger so for a 300KW turbine you would need around 5000 panels I think (from memory).
    Just dont add up

  10. #10
    BigAndy
    Guest

    Re: No future for Wind Turbines

    Quote Originally Posted by its yourself View Post
    Pedders I know you are never one to let reality intrude on your evangelical zealotry in support of shale gas

    But you need to understand that the present idiocy from the omnishambles of incompetents in your government has also destroyed confidence in shale gas and nuclear stations in England and Wales.

    Stupidity deters investment and destroys business confidence. No one can think the present situation in your country is acceptible.

    That is why Scottish industry has pressed on with renewable investment and welcomes the cash you have lost.

    Thanks
    Of course you are right, the policy here is becoming increasingly more bizarre as we go along. As said previously if your lot decides to devolve it will leave the remainder of UK up the creek as far as renewable targets go. The rest of Europe are laughing at our policies, in spain, Germany etc they wouldn't dream of all the fuss we have putting up some turbines.

    as you say, the nuclear investment is similar, we are fast heading towards a situation of power shortage as the old sations begin to go off line and quite frankly I welcome that because reality might actually begin to dawn at some stage.

  11. #11
    RGSP
    Guest

    Re: No future for Wind Turbines

    This is a very silly thread. Of course there is a future for wind turbines, the questions are when subsidies will end, and after that how many turbines will be viable, and where?

    The answer to the first question is that subsidy will probably (not definitely) end at some time between 2017 and 2020, but frankly I don't know the answer to the second question. I think in England the rate of installation of new turbines is very likely to decrease after the next year or two, but it will probably hold up in Scotland for a few extra more years.

    Setting solar pv against wind energy is also silly. In terms of green energy, we almost certainly need both, and they each have different good and bad points. In the south and east of England, insolation is relatively good, and if the roofs of new houses are covered with solar pv panels, it will mostly make them net energy exporters, and this can now be done at minimal cost. It's less easy to do that in most of Scotland, but wind speeds are higher (on the whole) so if there is a competition, wind power will fare better. I can only find a map for insolation instantly, perhaps someone else can post one for average wind speeds?


    In any case, neither solar nor wind are going to be able to produce continuous power for the base load, and at the moment the only realistic candidates for most of that are fossil fuels (most likely gas, some of it shale gas) and nuclear. "Clean" nuclear technology is slowly coming, and in the long term (50 to 100 years) I have no doubt it will be the winner, but that's still a long way off. In the mean time we have to accept that the choice is largely a political one based on public opinion rather than engineering fact, but past history has indicated that when major power cuts start, public opinion changes rather rapidly.

  12. #12
    janeislay
    Guest

    Re: No future for Wind Turbines

    Well at least here on Islay we're making progress with marine energy. There are two projects well on the way. Surely this must be a major way forward.

  13. #13
    RGSP
    Guest

    Re: No future for Wind Turbines

    Quote Originally Posted by janeislay View Post
    Well at least here on Islay we're making progress with marine energy. There are two projects well on the way. Surely this must be a major way forward.
    Worth following up and testing on a moderate scale certainly, but the total energy available is sadly not that large at all.

  14. #14
    Fifer
    Guest

    Re: No future for Wind Turbines

    Quote Originally Posted by janeislay View Post
    Well at least here on Islay we're making progress with marine energy. There are two projects well on the way. Surely this must be a major way forward.
    Hope this does well - but everything has a side effect. Marine turbines and the like can alter water flow and cause erosion of the sea bed and neighbouring coastline.

    I am not against marine energy, I am sure it will play a part in energy supply in the future.

    Surely a variety of sources is better than 'all the eggs in one basket approach'. The opposition to most schemes (new hydro for Loch Lochy, fracking near Blackpool, wind turbines, surface coal mines etc) makes me wonder where the public think their electricity is going to come from in the future.

  15. #15
    RGT
    Guest

    Re: No future for Wind Turbines

    Quote Originally Posted by big_phil View Post
    SOLAR rules
    Not in this country

  16. #16
    flumpy
    Guest

    Re: No future for Wind Turbines

    Not many flag bearer's for the most efficient, environmentally friendly, CO2 neutral and most sustainable technology then.....

  17. #17
    Pedders
    Guest

    Re: No future for Wind Turbines

    Quote Originally Posted by flumpy View Post
    Not many flag bearer's for the most efficient, environmentally friendly, CO2 neutral and most sustainable technology then.....
    Are you being serious ?

  18. #18
    jamesy
    Guest

    Re: No future for Wind Turbines

    Quote Originally Posted by janeislay View Post
    Well at least here on Islay we're making progress with marine energy. There are two projects well on the way. Surely this must be a major way forward.
    There has been LOTS of money pumped into wave/tidal energy here........... It has a long way to go before proving it's self.

  19. #19
    JohnnyP
    Guest

    Re: No future for Wind Turbines

    I put some insolation in my loft, but careful the dust doesn't go up your nose.

  20. #20
    joe soapy
    Guest

    Re: No future for Wind Turbines

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesy View Post
    There has been LOTS of money pumped into wave/tidal energy here........... It has a long way to go before proving it's self.
    tidal power implemention is a lot like the situstion with TB.. Enormous sums spent on research etc, but very little on actually building operational plant.
    Devon is littered with viable sites that have fallen into disuse, the best local site is plymouth sound, with a vast amount of water flowing past the ends of the breakwater or under the saltash bridge.
    bit further afield, if the government wanted to set an example, they have a pretty good site right outside the houses of parliament for either or heat pumps or water mills. might not make the most sense in purely economic terms. but would show serious intent

  21. #21
    BadLamber
    Guest

    Re: No future for Wind Turbines

    Quote Originally Posted by Pedders View Post
    Are you being serious ?
    Why would he not be, its one of the best ways too produce power. burning good feed is just wastefull. growing wood for power is wastefull. Solar produces power in daylight and summer, ( the times we least need it ). Wind produces power in the wet windy cold months of the year ( when we need it ). Yes we need storage and there may be periods needing back up but that can be done easily with large engine driven generators. Old power stations have too be shut down soon. Nobody wants nuclear (its too dangerous and far too expensive). Wind turbines are by far the best and will continue improving in years to come.

  22. #22
    peasantman
    Guest

    Re: No future for Wind Turbines

    Better with a mix of sources, though I envisage another dash for gas as its the only source that can now be built quickly enough to meet the looming shortfall - but we will be relying on foreign supplies until/if the shale gas gets flowing - which is not by any means a certainty.

    Gas complements wind and solar nicely as gas turbines can be ramped up quickly to meet demand when wind speeds are low.

    Gas is one of the lowest producers of CO2 of all the fossil fuels but does still produce CO2 and is not renewable and could be considered a waste to burn it when it is needed in the production of plastics and fertiliser.

    Gas power stations are not cheap either. The last one I worked on at Little Barford cost 250 million for 600 MW (Two gas turbines and one steam turbine using the exhaust gas heat). Ironically it could not operate during its first winter because there was not enough gas available in the HP grid to keep it going!

    What does get my back up is the people who object to anything and everything in their back yard yet expect somebody else to put up with it. I also consider many man made structures as somehow quite beautiful, be they pylons, windmills, nuclear power stations or whatever. Certainly better than a lot of the Norman Foster stuff that blights our cities.

  23. #23
    BadLamber
    Guest

    Re: No future for Wind Turbines

    Quote Originally Posted by peasantman View Post
    Better with a mix of sources, though I envisage another dash for gas as its the only source that can now be built quickly enough to meet the looming shortfall - but we will be relying on foreign supplies until/if the shale gas gets flowing - which is not by any means a certainty.

    Gas complements wind and solar nicely as gas turbines can be ramped up quickly to meet demand when wind speeds are low.

    Gas is one of the lowest producers of CO2 of all the fossil fuels but does still produce CO2 and is not renewable and could be considered a waste to burn it when it is needed in the production of plastics and fertiliser.

    Gas power stations are not cheap either. The last one I worked on at Little Barford cost 250 million for 600 MW (Two gas turbines and one steam turbine using the exhaust gas heat). Ironically it could not operate during its first winter because there was not enough gas available in the HP grid to keep it going!

    What does get my back up is the people who object to anything and everything in their back yard yet expect somebody else to put up with it. I also consider many man made structures as somehow quite beautiful, be they pylons, windmills, nuclear power stations or whatever. Certainly better than a lot of the Norman Foster stuff that blights our cities.
    Totally agree that its better too have a good mix. You say Little Barford cost 250 million for 600MW. Do you know who paid for it. I presume a nuclear plant would cost a lot more. Wind turbines dont cost any more than that. And they dont need fuel to make them work.

  24. #24
    peasantman
    Guest

    Re: No future for Wind Turbines

    Quote Originally Posted by BadLamber View Post
    Totally agree that its better too have a good mix. You say Little Barford cost 250 million for 600MW. Do you know who paid for it. I presume a nuclear plant would cost a lot more. Wind turbines dont cost any more than that. And they dont need fuel to make them work.
    National Power paid for it. Nearly 500,000 per MW and this was getting on for 15 years ago. And then as you say, you have to buy the gas.

    What is the installed price for a MW of wind power? I know we are comparing apples with oranges, but it gives some idea.

  25. #25
    BadLamber
    Guest

    Re: No future for Wind Turbines

    Quote Originally Posted by peasantman View Post
    National Power paid for it. Nearly 500,000 per MW and this was getting on for 15 years ago. And then as you say, you have to buy the gas.

    What is the installed price for a MW of wind power? I know we are comparing apples with oranges, but it gives some idea.
    Dont know accurate prices but a single 900kw machine is about a million installed. Multiples would work out cheaper. Dont know what a 2.3mw costs but would think its a good bit cheaper per kw. Who is National Power ? Are they goverment funded at all?

  26. #26
    BOB1
    Guest

    Re: No future for Wind Turbines

    Quote Originally Posted by BadLamber View Post
    Dont know accurate prices but a single 900kw machine is about a million installed. Multiples would work out cheaper. Dont know what a 2.3mw costs but would think its a good bit cheaper per kw. Who is National Power ? Are they goverment funded at all?
    My 800Kw wind project is 1.3M inc Grid connection I think a 2.3Mw is around 2.9M installed

  27. #27
    peasantman
    Guest

    Re: No future for Wind Turbines

    Quote Originally Posted by BadLamber View Post
    Dont know accurate prices but a single 900kw machine is about a million installed. Multiples would work out cheaper. Dont know what a 2.3mw costs but would think its a good bit cheaper per kw. Who is National Power ? Are they goverment funded at all?
    National Power and Powergen were the two businesses that resulted from the privatisation of the Central Electricity Generating Board (CEGB). I don't know whether they still exist in the same form now or whether they are in foreign hands. They were huge businesses, each owning half the generating capacity of the country.

    Showing my age now. I started my career during Mrs Thatchers "dash for gas". She wanted never to be held to ransom by the miners again. Now it looks like we are in for another dash for gas. problem this time is we don't have a lot of gas ..... yet.

    Getting back on thread , in simple terms, renewables have a place in reducing the gas bills, but renewables will never be the whole solution as they can't supply power on demand, only when the wind blows. You could build a national network of hydro reservoirs to pump water up hill and store it when the wind is blowing then let it down through turbines when the wind is not blowing. That might also help with flood and drought avoidance but that would require forward joined up thinking, something governments are not particularly good at, as they are not engineers, just lawyers and professional politicians.

  28. #28
    culphim78
    Guest

    Re: No future for Wind Turbines

    2.3 mw Enercon 3.3 million installed 525k a year 7 yr payback

  29. #29
    alexsmb
    Guest

    Re: No future for Wind Turbines

    A very rough calculation for an offshore wind project near me is about 3.3m per MW but then they should be more efficient - lots of wind out here and even more out at sea.

  30. #30
    MyriadCEG
    Guest

    Re: No future for Wind Turbines

    Price per MW / kW is something we've included in a recent project. Highlights of research is:

    Onshore Wind (large wind (MW+))
    Clyde, Scotland - 600m ,Capacity 456 MW (1,315/kW)
    South Uist, Western Isles - 11m, Capacity 7MW (1,571/kW)
    Carnedd Wen Wind , Wales - 200m, Capacity 150 MW (1,333/kW)
    Pen y Cymoedd, South Wales - 365m, Capacity 275 MW (1,327/KW)

    Average cost installed = 1,176m/888 MW = 1,324 per kW

    Offshore Wind
    Crown Estates UK Offshore Wind Report 2012 says:
    Average cost 2,900 per kW installed

    Reports on specific sites say:
    Race Bank & Warwick Energy's, East Norfolk Coast 3bn 1,140 MW (2,631 per kW)
    Sheringham Shoal, North Norfolk Coast 1bn 317 MW (3,154 per kW)

    Average: 2,892/kW

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