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Thread: Question about recessed planting rows.

  1. #1
    doorknob
    Guest

    Question about recessed planting rows.

    I've been watching quite a bit of video of various drills used in the UK and western Europe. Many of the tine type, seem to leave the seeded row somewhat recessed below the previous soil surface level. Perhaps this is not so and I am just not seeing things right. But if the seeded row is slightly below the surface out front of the drill, does this have an advantage even in your wet climates? Is there any real disadvantage that you would share?

    I ask because we are having another excessively wet year and the outlook for spring is no better. I have no experience with a tine, hoe or shank type seeder. I have access to the components easy enough, but I am concerned about seeding in a recessed row and then having some unexpected heavy rains before emergence. Is this an issue for you?

    Thanks.

  2. #2
    knockie
    Guest

    Re: Question about recessed planting rows.

    Think it's more soil/trash throw from the tines. Point of tine is still 2 or 3" below the seed.
    Ta.
    SD.

  3. #3
    Kentish_Andy
    Guest

    Re: Question about recessed planting rows.

    Quote Originally Posted by doorknob View Post
    I've been watching quite a bit of video of various drills used in the UK and western Europe. Many of the tine type, seem to leave the seeded row somewhat recessed below the previous soil surface level. Perhaps this is not so and I am just not seeing things right. But if the seeded row is slightly below the surface out front of the drill, does this have an advantage even in your wet climates? Is there any real disadvantage that you would share?

    I ask because we are having another excessively wet year and the outlook for spring is no better. I have no experience with a tine, hoe or shank type seeder. I have access to the components easy enough, but I am concerned about seeding in a recessed row and then having some unexpected heavy rains before emergence. Is this an issue for you?

    Thanks.
    From using a Claydon for 6 years, yes the recess can be a problem. One problem is on heavy clay. If drilled when wet and then also get more rain afterwards then the slots will fill up with water and rot seed. The other problem is in a dry time that the ridges created do not allow the rolls to actually consolidate the seed. These reasons is why quite often in tricky soils and conditions we have run a straw rake over the ground after drilling before the rolls.

  4. #4
    doorknob
    Guest

    Re: Question about recessed planting rows.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kentish_Andy View Post
    From using a Claydon for 6 years, yes the recess can be a problem. One problem is on heavy clay. If drilled when wet and then also get more rain afterwards then the slots will fill up with water and rot seed. The other problem is in a dry time that the ridges created do not allow the rolls to actually consolidate the seed. These reasons is why quite often in tricky soils and conditions we have run a straw rake over the ground after drilling before the rolls.
    Thank you. That is exactly what I was concerned about. I watched what few vids are up on the Mzuri, then watched several of the Claydon. I also see how the rakes work now. Great setups.

  5. #5
    james lloyd
    Guest

    Re: Question about recessed planting rows.

    Had the very same discussion yesterday at a farm walk. One farmer has sold his drill and spreads the seed with fert spreader then covers it with a set of discs running 1 cm deep, this effectively causes mini beds with all of the wheat growing on top of a mini bed (1cm) high. All of the excess winter water (the same winter rainfall a dubline, ireland) does not afffect the wheat

  6. #6
    doorknob
    Guest

    Re: Question about recessed planting rows.

    Quote Originally Posted by james lloyd View Post
    Had the very same discussion yesterday at a farm walk. One farmer has sold his drill and spreads the seed with fert spreader then covers it with a set of discs running 1 cm deep, this effectively causes mini beds with all of the wheat growing on top of a mini bed (1cm) high. All of the excess winter water (the same winter rainfall a dubline, ireland) does not afffect the wheat
    Now check that out !!!! Sort of a micro ridge till system. Thanks for posting those pictures to go with the explanation.

    There is an old book, one of my favorites, called "From the soil up". Ridge till in wetter climates was discussed at length and has been part of my observation process lately. Just as you mention, the area about the roots can be drained and allow the soil to respirate, vs., become anaerobic even for shorter durations, and cause damage.
    Thanks.

  7. #7
    james lloyd
    Guest

    Re: Question about recessed planting rows.

    Quote Originally Posted by doorknob View Post
    Now check that out !!!! Sort of a micro ridge till system. Thanks for posting those pictures to go with the explanation.

    There is an old book, one of my favorites, called "From the soil up". Ridge till in wetter climates was discussed at length and has been part of my observation process lately. Just as you mention, the area about the roots can be drained and allow the soil to respirate, vs., become anaerobic even for shorter durations, and cause damage.
    Thanks.
    I am having this debate at the moment as I am currently running a Jd 750 but it does not like marginal conditions. ie it clogs up due to the very sicky clay around here. So do I buy:
    1: a set of discs and do as above using a fert. spreader to put seed on. And stop growing wheat on a seed contract as the spreading will have a certain amount of losses. We do not need a set of discs so a cost around 5,000.
    2: get a s 4m 750a and cover the ground more quickly. Net cost 20-30,000. No ridging
    3: convert a co4 or freeflow 4m into a tine drill with opening disc in frount of each tine so that it can cope with maize stubble. This system will cultivate a bit of land thus increasing drainage (it will remove surface compaction) and it will create ridges with the seed growing on the side of each ridge. Net cost around 5,000
    4: Go down the agrisem, triosem route with should have the same affect as option 3. This system should enable me to sell fert spreader, JD750, cultivator. And have the added benefit of being able to localise fert at drilling time (maize and wheat). Net cost around 5,000

    Net cost is calculated after sale of existing JD750 in all except option 4 where we will also sell fert spreader, cultivator, as they will be surplus to requirements.

    Hope that all makes sense

  8. #8
    Clive
    Guest

    Re: Question about recessed planting rows.

    Quote Originally Posted by james lloyd View Post
    I am having this debate at the moment as I am currently running a Jd 750 but it does not like marginal conditions. ie it clogs up due to the very sicky clay around here. So do I buy:
    1: a set of discs and do as above using a fert. spreader to put seed on. And stop growing wheat on a seed contract as the spreading will have a certain amount of losses. We do not need a set of discs so a cost around 5,000.
    2: get a s 4m 750a and cover the ground more quickly. Net cost 20-30,000. No ridging
    3: convert a co4 or freeflow 4m into a tine drill with opening disc in frount of each tine so that it can cope with maize stubble. This system will cultivate a bit of land thus increasing drainage (it will remove surface compaction) and it will create ridges with the seed growing on the side of each ridge. Net cost around 5,000
    4: Go down the agrisem, triosem route with should have the same affect as option 3. This system should enable me to sell fert spreader, JD750, cultivator. And have the added benefit of being able to localise fert at drilling time (maize and wheat). Net cost around 5,000

    Net cost is calculated after sale of existing JD750 in all except option 4 where we will also sell fert spreader, cultivator, as they will be surplus to requirements.

    Hope that all makes sense
    locally I have seen a couple of farms go down the broadcast / cultivate in route and I have been tempted myself

    however they all went back to drilling so maybe it just didn't yield well or was a bit prone to fail ??

  9. #9
    doorknob
    Guest

    Re: Question about recessed planting rows.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clive View Post
    locally I have seen a couple of farms go down the broadcast / cultivate in route and I have been tempted myself

    however they all went back to drilling so maybe it just didn't yield well or was a bit prone to fail ??
    But the above mentioned method of putting the seed row on top of the ridge, rather than below the surface or even within the surface level, may be a large factor in the success or failure of the broadcast system. ?

  10. #10
    agricontract
    Guest

    Re: Question about recessed planting rows.

    I love this forum as great minds think alike for the last few months I have been thinking of modifieIng my claydon to sow on top of the ridges some how or of a way of drilling on top of mini drills but thought I was mad to think of it guess not now

  11. #11
    james lloyd
    Guest

    Re: Question about recessed planting rows.

    Quote Originally Posted by agricontract View Post
    I love this forum as great minds think alike for the last few months I have been thinking of modifieIng my claydon to sow on top of the ridges some how or of a way of drilling on top of mini drills but thought I was mad to think of it guess not now
    I have been thinking about how do you do it. In my mind two options

    1: fit frount hopper and have tines/tubes placing the seed just in frount of the disc. Thus you are getting accurate seed rates and not problems on headlands
    2: Modify a tine cultivator to throw the soil onto the seed using the same frount hopper as above. with this system you have the option of placing fertiliser. with the loosening tine you will also reduce compaction.

  12. #12
    yelrabtaehw
    Guest

    Re: Question about recessed planting rows.

    When in Northern Cyprus all the cereals were planted with very simple rigid cultivators with legs about 9" apart with a seed box on top dropping seed ahead of but between legs.They did not go very deep but it was a very low tech,low energy way to do the job.
    If you could roll in at same time or after it would help with slugs and levelling.

  13. #13
    Willscale
    Guest

    Re: Question about recessed planting rows.

    simple seed box on here - shows how simple it can be

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpAPRlg2Zgs

  14. #14
    Willscale
    Guest

    Re: Question about recessed planting rows.

    James in France - Just a bit bemused about the problems your having with the 750 after grain maize because whilst its possible your gear has a bit of metal fatigue this should really be a reasonably easy situation for the 750 to drill in - i'm sure plenty in the USA drill WW after maize.

    If the drill clogs up you could try mudsmith wheels and plenty of weight on the drill to make sure that the wheels have enough downpressure to keep turning on the maize trash.

    I'd speak to some americans who do this regularly before making decision but sounds easiest to get a set of discs and lightly put the trash under.

  15. #15
    doorknob
    Guest

    Re: Question about recessed planting rows.

    Quote Originally Posted by james lloyd View Post
    I have been thinking about how do you do it. In my mind two options

    1: fit frount hopper and have tines/tubes placing the seed just in frount of the disc. Thus you are getting accurate seed rates and not problems on headlands
    2: Modify a tine cultivator to throw the soil onto the seed using the same frount hopper as above. with this system you have the option of placing fertiliser. with the loosening tine you will also reduce compaction.
    In my opinion, this is very important when seeding in wet soils. I know we are not supposed to go when conditions are too awful wet, but sometimes nature throws us a curve that we have to work with.

    Compressed soil around the seed will, IMO, cause issues that do not show up until the plant is emerged and in a more advanced stage. If the soil can not respirate, the effects are not immediate, but show up a bit later, making diagnosis of the problem difficult.

    So even though the 750 may go if setup for wet soil, and even get the seed slot closed, the soil about the seed is very compressed and will have difficulty breathing.
    IMO.

  16. #16
    Clive
    Guest

    Re: Question about recessed planting rows.

    Quote Originally Posted by Willscale View Post
    James in France - Just a bit bemused about the problems your having with the 750 after grain maize because whilst its possible your gear has a bit of metal fatigue this should really be a reasonably easy situation for the 750 to drill in - i'm sure plenty in the USA drill WW after maize.

    If the drill clogs up you could try mudsmith wheels and plenty of weight on the drill to make sure that the wheels have enough downpressure to keep turning on the maize trash.

    I'd speak to some americans who do this regularly before making decision but sounds easiest to get a set of discs and lightly put the trash under.
    I would also suggest you try the mudsmith wheels

    I was even considering modifying my standard wheels to look similar using our plasma cutter - can see advantages in wet conditions and no real downside to doing so ?

  17. #17
    james lloyd
    Guest

    Re: Question about recessed planting rows.

    Quote Originally Posted by Willscale View Post
    James in France - Just a bit bemused about the problems your having with the 750 after grain maize because whilst its possible your gear has a bit of metal fatigue this should really be a reasonably easy situation for the 750 to drill in - i'm sure plenty in the USA drill WW after maize.

    If the drill clogs up you could try mudsmith wheels and plenty of weight on the drill to make sure that the wheels have enough downpressure to keep turning on the maize trash.

    I'd speak to some americans who do this regularly before making decision but sounds easiest to get a set of discs and lightly put the trash under.
    Will, Our climate here (100km from the atlantic coast) is not very different to uk but with a slight difference in that we get a summer. We have an average rainfall of around 700-800mm per annum of which most falls from October (we drill wheat end of october) till May, air humidity from around middle of september is around 70% to 95% so very little drying. Our soils have a high clay content 20-30% and sticks to everything when slightly damp. the 750 runs great in good conditions, but in marginal conditions it would break your heart.

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