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Thread: Too early to spray docks?

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    Too early to spray docks?

    Got a cracking crop of docks this year, thinking of spraying some cutting and some grazing is it to early. Going to use doxstar. It may kill the clover but atleast it kills the docks unlike squire ultra. Anyone got experiences with other sprays

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    Re: Too early to spray docks?

    I don't have too many docks, and so have been going round at odd times with a draining spade and digging docks out. I do a bit of this most years, and the size of roots I've been getting out this year is the biggest I can remember, with often only one or two rather poor looking leaves on the surface. I can't say what they're like in Cornwall, but here in Suffolk I'd say leave spraying for a few weeks.

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    Re: Too early to spray docks?

    Probably depends on how you've been feeding the ground, but if you're intensive like us, they'll be more than big enough. As for doxstar, we find it to be a waste of time. Sickens them for a year (maybe two), but half or more will be back again. If you have too many to spot spray, leave it to the back end - late september while there is still growth, and go with a third rate of an 'Ally' derivative product. It is temporarily VERY hard on the grass, but doesn't kill it. You will be cringing for about a month, but by november it will be greening up again with no long term damage. The sward will be as clean as a whistle though. Its also top notch stuff in the spot sprayer of course, and you don't take the yield hit.

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    Senior Member davidroberts30's Avatar
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    Re: Too early to spray docks?

    Quote Originally Posted by DairyFarmer111 View Post
    Probably depends on how you've been feeding the ground, but if you're intensive like us, they'll be more than big enough. As for doxstar, we find it to be a waste of time. Sickens them for a year (maybe two), but half or more will be back again. If you have too many to spot spray, leave it to the back end - late september while there is still growth, and go with a third rate of an 'Ally' derivative product. It is temporarily VERY hard on the grass, but doesn't kill it. You will be cringing for about a month, but by november it will be greening up again with no long term damage. The sward will be as clean as a whistle though. Its also top notch stuff in the spot sprayer of course, and you don't take the yield hit.
    cimmaron


    just done mine
    agronomist said look at the docks and spot the center leaf that comes up,when that's opening get the spray on

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    Re: Too early to spray docks?

    Been spot spraying for over a week now for customers at their request, ground conditions not great in places for heavier equipment. Big differences in size of plants from smaller than a cigarette packet to A5 page size. All get a squirt!

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    Re: Too early to spray docks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cornishfarmer View Post
    Got a cracking crop of docks this year, thinking of spraying some cutting and some grazing is it to early. Going to use doxstar. It may kill the clover but atleast it kills the docks unlike squire ultra. Anyone got experiences with other sprays
    Squire ultra is old hat and very reliant on the docks being at their peak. Pinnacle seems a bit more reliable and cheaper into the bargain. I would ALWAYS use grassland SUs with a hormone partner.

    Docks need to be the size of an A4 sheet and actively growing. They should be green, happy and looking like something you might contemplate putting in a salad. Weeds that are not actively growing will not suffer enough when hit by herbicides.

    If you want show me a picture and I'll tell you yes or no. Don't know your land or what recent weather has been like but not all grassland here around me would be ready to spray yet.

    Beware where Doxstar and Pastor etc are used they are expensive and can have gaps- IE they often don't trouble buttercup much. What else do you have besides docks?

    Typically I would use Cimarron plus a hormone of some kind to go with it. With 3 physiological effects happening in the plant at once they don't hang around for long.

    Below is a picture of what healthy dock tissue should look like. Note the one on the left is Rumex Crispus which is pretty resistant to pinnacle.


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    Senior Member davidroberts30's Avatar
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    Re: Too early to spray docks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Uwork4menow View Post
    Squire ultra is old hat and very reliant on the docks being at their peak. Pinnacle seems a bit more reliable and cheaper into the bargain. I would ALWAYS use grassland SUs with a hormone partner.

    Docks need to be the size of an A4 sheet and actively growing. They should be green, happy and looking like something you might contemplate putting in a salad. Weeds that are not actively growing will not suffer enough when hit by herbicides.

    If you want show me a picture and I'll tell you yes or no. Don't know your land or what recent weather has been like but not all grassland here around me would be ready to spray yet.

    Beware where Doxstar and Pastor etc are used they are expensive and can have gaps- IE they often don't trouble buttercup much. What else do you have besides docks?

    Typically I would use Cimarron plus a hormone of some kind to go with it. With 3 physiological effects happening in the plant at once they don't hang around for long.

    Below is a picture of what healthy dock tissue should look like. Note the one on the left is Rumex Crispus which is pretty resistant to pinnacle.

    i used 6 grams/h of cimmaron and 2l/h of headland transfer

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    Re: Too early to spray docks?

    Yes that is the sort of thing I would do. I don't have access to headland transfer but I use Difarmon or similar with the Cimarron. I think max rate is 3g/ha though.

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    Re: Too early to spray docks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Uwork4menow View Post
    Yes that is the sort of thing I would do. I don't have access to headland transfer but I use Difarmon or similar with the Cimarron. I think max rate is 3g/ha though.
    yes i was putting 6 grams in the sprayer

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    Re: Too early to spray docks?

    Finy seems to be the one that gets used round here. Same chemical as far as I can see but a different concentration. Not licensed for grass as such. Do you not find it too big a sacrifice to make in the spring?

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    Re: Too early to spray docks?

    Quote Originally Posted by DairyFarmer111 View Post
    Finy seems to be the one that gets used round here. Same chemical as far as I can see but a different concentration. Not licensed for grass as such. Do you not find it too big a sacrifice to make in the spring?
    Not when i got over 20% docks in some patches

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    Re: Too early to spray docks?

    Quote Originally Posted by DairyFarmer111 View Post
    Finy seems to be the one that gets used round here. Same chemical as far as I can see but a different concentration. Not licensed for grass as such. Do you not find it too big a sacrifice to make in the spring?
    Putting big doses of metsulfuron-methyl is a recipe for making your grass very very sick.

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    Re: Too early to spray docks?

    Yes, third rate is pretty sore on it. I d definitely only use it at the back end and even then it's a sacrifice. But by the look of the sward now it's worth it. Nobody has mentioned that it's dirt cheap. Think forefront for example.

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    Senior Member davidroberts30's Avatar
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    Re: Too early to spray docks?

    Quote Originally Posted by DairyFarmer111 View Post
    Yes, third rate is pretty sore on it. I d definitely only use it at the back end and even then it's a sacrifice. But by the look of the sward now it's worth it. Nobody has mentioned that it's dirt cheap. Think forefront for example.
    22 a acre iirc

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    Re: Too early to spray docks?

    On silage getting ground I would leave them until after first cut and hit them hard with full rate dockstar when they are all at the same growth stage.

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    Re: Too early to spray docks?

    Quote Originally Posted by ffarmwr View Post
    On silage getting ground I would leave them until after first cut and hit them hard with full rate dockstar when they are all at the same growth stage.
    Cimarron and a half rate of a hormone would be better and cheaper. Not sure if you can mix Cimarron and Doxstar though.

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    Re: Too early to spray docks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Uwork4menow View Post
    Cimarron and a half rate of a hormone would be better and cheaper. Not sure if you can mix Cimarron and Doxstar though.
    I would forget mixing it with doxstar and just mix it with Gala (or equivalent with grass on label)

    I understand what you are saying about SU's, but if Docks are really bad then I tend to go with 2l pastor now as it is not as affected by cooler conditions compared to an old style hormone mix in my experience. I tend to go with a hormone/SU mix after first cut where necessary.

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    Re: Too early to spray docks?

    We used some Doxstar Pro a couple of weeks ago on some rampant docs and they seem to have been hit very hard.... I think the good growing weather following has really made them take the spray in.

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    Re: Too early to spray docks?

    But the thing is, most sprays will wither the tops down for varying amounts of time. But you won't really know how good a job it is until next year.

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    Re: Too early to spray docks?

    Quote Originally Posted by DairyFarmer111 View Post
    But the thing is, most sprays will wither the tops down for varying amounts of time. But you won't really know how good a job it is until next year.
    Agreed, this is why Cimarron is one of the better products; true symplastic translocation and active in very small quantities. All other products with a hormone type action rely on good coverage and good growing conditions to work well; they do not kill plants directly but rather force them to grow and exhaust their reserves in doing so. Cimarron does not rely on this effect, it inhibits a specific part of a metabolic pathway.

    The beauty of an SU/hormone mixture is that it is in effect a quadruple whammy. 1st, the wetter in the hormone is doing to dewax the cuticle of the leaf and cause water loss (hence the rapid wilting and visual effect). 2nd, the SU will benefit from the wetting agent and a now dewaxed leaf. 3rd, the Hormone will make the plant try and grow, and 4th the SU is going to cut off its food supply and metabolism.

    The downside with the pyr herbicides, is that only the flurox is widely available and cheap (but has narrow weed spectrum). The clopyralid is made by Dow who have a hold on the market and hence it is hideously expensive.

    I tend to reserve Pastor and Forefront for times when you have a real big mess, nettles, thistles, docks etc etc, which at least in my area is a rare occurrence.

    Note that Doxstar, thistleX and Pastor will not really worry buttercup or dandelion much.

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    Re: Too early to spray docks?

    What does cimmaron cost per acre?

    And what hormone do you put with it? Do you find it really needs the hormone, as we seem to get a good kill without?

    Is it any less damaging to grass production than Finy?

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    Senior Member davidroberts30's Avatar
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    Re: Too early to spray docks?

    Quote Originally Posted by DairyFarmer111 View Post
    What does cimmaron cost per acre?

    And what hormone do you put with it? Do you find it really needs the hormone, as we seem to get a good kill without?

    Is it any less damaging to grass production than Finy?
    had my bill and the cimmaron and headland transfer is 12.10 a acre

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    Re: Too early to spray docks?

    Quote Originally Posted by DairyFarmer111 View Post
    What does cimmaron cost per acre?

    And what hormone do you put with it? Do you find it really needs the hormone, as we seem to get a good kill without?

    Is it any less damaging to grass production than Finy?
    I don't know what Finy is but I am guessing the active ingredient is Metsulfuron-methyl. This active ingredient is part of the Dupont range of BLW killers in wheat and barley, where it is a heavy loading of this active and it wipes the floor with a lot of BLWs.

    Cimarron is a lower loading version, the maximum is 3g per hectare, IE a very very tiny amount of active per hectare.

    I would always use it with a hormone, I think it might safen it on the grass too, plus it speeds up the kill of the target weeds.

    Metsulfuron-methyl I think does seem to have some effect on grasses, I am guessing it relies on the ability of wheat and barley to metabolise it to something less damaging before it kills the plants themselves. Grasses must have the same kind of ability but I guess it is far reduced. I have seen high populations of wild oats greatly reduced where Ally was used to control BLWs in cereals and I can only assume this is because the Ally has some measurable effect on grasses in general.

    You must only use Cimarron in good growing conditions and never in times of stress. And NEVER with any kind of adjuvant.

    Cimarron plus a healthy dose of hormone (Dicamba and flurox are particularly good on docks themselves) would cost 10-15 an acre depending on what hormone is used and at what rate. Either way, it is automatically cheaper than stuff like doxstar and pastor at anything above and beyond half rate.

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    Re: Too early to spray docks?



    these are what you need for docks. they will devestate docks later in the season but do not get going till june. i am thinking of breeding them and selling them by the million.

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    Re: Too early to spray docks?

    that was supposed to be an image of a dock beetle but it went wrong

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