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Thread: CAP subsidy payments website

  1. #1
    Senior Member Sam_TM's Avatar
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    CAP subsidy payments website

    For a rainy day ...

    http://cap-payments.defra.gov.uk/Default.aspx
    The details included on this website relate to all CAP subsidy payments made to beneficiaries during the EU financial year 16 October 2013 to 15 October 2014.


    Certainly looks accurate!

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    Re: CAP subsidy payments website

    That will stir up the hornets nest again ???

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    Senior Member Bald Rick's Avatar
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    Re: CAP subsidy payments website

    Hurrah ....... "No Data Found" for us.

    Mind you, our payment is bugger all

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    Senior Member Bald Rick's Avatar
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    Re: CAP subsidy payments website

    Quote Originally Posted by Bald Rick View Post
    Hurrah ....... "No Data Found" for us.

    Mind you, our payment is bugger all
    Double bugger ........ refined the search and there we are. Still nothing to get the anti brigade too aerated as there are far bigger claimants on the page we share.

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    Senior Member Bald Rick's Avatar
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    Re: CAP subsidy payments website

    Quote Originally Posted by Bald Rick View Post
    Double bugger ........ refined the search and there we are. Still nothing to get the anti brigade too aerated as there are far bigger claimants on the page we share.
    Triple bugger ..... my neighbour is raking it in

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    Senior Member Mog's Avatar
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    Re: CAP subsidy payments website

    Interesting. There are 54 recipients of over 1 million accounting for a total of 104 million. If you break it down then 44 million of that is going to governmental institutions like County councils or to charities like the RSPB & the National Trust.

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    Senior Member grassmanman's Avatar
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    Re: CAP subsidy payments website

    Our local paper printed an article about how the farmers union are unhappy about the publishing of this information with a link to it below!!
    In a time of austerity they do look embarrassing and hard to justify why a farmer no employees, wife working off farm gets a 6 figure sum handed to him whilst another gets a few thousand.

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    Re: CAP subsidy payments website

    I used to be the biggest advocate for subsidies but I have come to think that they are a relic of ancient and useless government policy. They are utterly pointless and I dread to think how many million are spent trying to administrate and police the system.

    It is a ridiculous state of affairs and it should all be shelved immediately. When we eventually exit the EU the CAP will be killed instantly, and the industry will be far better off.

    It makes no sense to hand thousands to a barley baron or old joe in the Welsh mountains with 20 sheep on his LFA.

    In the age of economic austerity the tax payer must be scratching his head as to why agriculture is given such favored status.

    If you took the governments handling of the industry purely on historic terms you would realise instantly that the government is neither competent nor willing enough to be an effective force in the marketplace, and it has no business trying to interfere with it.

    Pay farmers a fair price for the product and leave it at that. No European government nor the EU itself is capable of having any useful influence in such a volatile global marketplace,- the millions of tax payers money which must have been wasted at every level on civil servants and other cretins trying to police and manipulate the agricultural industry must be astronomical. And for what gain? The industry does not benefit, the people in it do not benefit and the consumer themselves do not benefit as so much food is imported anyway.

    You cannot justify it on any level and the principle of it is flawed anyway.

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    Re: CAP subsidy payments website

    Quote Originally Posted by Uwork4menow View Post
    I used to be the biggest advocate for subsidies but I have come to think that they are a relic of ancient and useless government policy. They are utterly pointless and I dread to think how many million are spent trying to administrate and police the system.

    It is a ridiculous state of affairs and it should all be shelved immediately. When we eventually exit the EU the CAP will be killed instantly, and the industry will be far better off.

    It makes no sense to hand thousands to a barley baron or old joe in the Welsh mountains with 20 sheep on his LFA.

    In the age of economic austerity the tax payer must be scratching his head as to why agriculture is given such favored status.

    If you took the governments handling of the industry purely on historic terms you would realise instantly that the government is neither competent nor willing enough to be an effective force in the marketplace, and it has no business trying to interfere with it.

    Pay farmers a fair price for the product and leave it at that. No European government nor the EU itself is capable of having any useful influence in such a volatile global marketplace,- the millions of tax payers money which must have been wasted at every level on civil servants and other cretins trying to police and manipulate the agricultural industry must be astronomical. And for what gain? The industry does not benefit, the people in it do not benefit and the consumer themselves do not benefit as so much food is imported anyway.

    You cannot justify it on any level and the principle of it is flawed anyway.
    I tend to agree that we'd be better off without subsidy. Who gets to decide what the fair price is though? Isn't a price over and above the market price just a subsidy by another means?

  10. #10
    Senior Member Bald Rick's Avatar
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    Re: CAP subsidy payments website

    Quote Originally Posted by Uwork4menow View Post
    I used to be the biggest advocate for subsidies but I have come to think that they are a relic of ancient and useless government policy. They are utterly pointless and I dread to think how many million are spent trying to administrate and police the system.

    It is a ridiculous state of affairs and it should all be shelved immediately. When we eventually exit the EU the CAP will be killed instantly, and the industry will be far better off.

    It makes no sense to hand thousands to a barley baron or old joe in the Welsh mountains with 20 sheep on his LFA.

    In the age of economic austerity the tax payer must be scratching his head as to why agriculture is given such favored status.

    If you took the governments handling of the industry purely on historic terms you would realise instantly that the government is neither competent nor willing enough to be an effective force in the marketplace, and it has no business trying to interfere with it.

    Pay farmers a fair price for the product and leave it at that. No European government nor the EU itself is capable of having any useful influence in such a volatile global marketplace,- the millions of tax payers money which must have been wasted at every level on civil servants and other cretins trying to police and manipulate the agricultural industry must be astronomical. And for what gain? The industry does not benefit, the people in it do not benefit and the consumer themselves do not benefit as so much food is imported anyway.

    You cannot justify it on any level and the principle of it is flawed anyway.
    Unfortunately, by giving out a subsidy you are also able to exert a degree of control. Hence we are bound in red tape and get pulled for the slightest breach.
    Policing this brings jobs and layers of management with limited or no accountability.
    Nothing is going to change that as "they" love being able to march around a farm with their branded fleece and a clipboard having worried us half daft 3 days before by warning of "An Inspection".

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    Senior Member 4wd's Avatar
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    Re: CAP subsidy payments website

    A neighbour is fond of saying it was much simpler when they just counted sheep and cattle once in a while.

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    Re: CAP subsidy payments website

    Don't itch for something if you're not prepared to scratch for it.

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    Re: CAP subsidy payments website

    The really annoying thing, to me anyway, is the local horsey brigade who are grabbing 000's and not producing an ounce of food, nor doing anything for the environment. I have identifed quite a few locally that have got their 10 - 20 acres, milk crates, horse tape and docks everywhere, and are grabbing the money with both hands. Some were small farms that I know well and would have given aspiring youngsters a chance but the present owners are only occupying them because they have the money, or daddy or hubby has the money to buy such places.

    Should land that doesn't produce food be taxed ? Discuss.

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    Senior Member grassmanman's Avatar
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    Re: CAP subsidy payments website

    If the public want cheap food it's the food that should be subsidised. Top up the price per tonne, kilo, litre those who produce it get it, simple.

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    Re: CAP subsidy payments website

    Edit

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    Re: CAP subsidy payments website

    Just had a quick scroll through subsidy payments for my area and am shocked to see just how much money is still being paid to people who gave up/died years ago. Notwithstanding this I am also shocked (no more totally pissed off) by the sums of money being paid to non farming bodies and the level of subsidy being paid to huge farmers (100's thousand pounds to already very wealthy individuals farming thousands of acres).
    Something is clearly wrong.
    This is a corrupt system.
    No wonder large scale farmers continue to muscle out the smaller guys. The sad thing is a large number of these large recipients who farm large acreages are making a shit job

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    Re: CAP subsidy payments website

    Quote Originally Posted by grassmanman View Post
    If the public want cheap food it's the food that should be subsidised. Top up the price per tonne, kilo, litre those who produce it get it, simple.
    That's what used to happen with the guaranteed payments system before we even went into the Common Market. The problem now is that too many people with an "ology", beard, and open-toed sandals have jumped on the environmental bandwagon and think that they should be the custodians of the countryside. They studied the subject for a few years and suddenly they know more about caring for the countryside, wildlife, and the environment than those that spend almost every waking hour working in the place.

    And the EU has made a breeding ground for these people. They know that farmers can usually be bribed with stewardship schemes and the like. Especially if deductions can be made to the BPS if they put a foot wrong. This whole EU payment situation has been an insidious cancer that has been creeping through our industry for the last 30+ years and there would be so much pain if it were to be stopped overnight.

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    Re: CAP subsidy payments website

    Quote Originally Posted by grassmanman View Post
    If the public want cheap food it's the food that should be subsidised. Top up the price per tonne, kilo, litre those who produce it get it, simple.
    There'd be unintended consequences to doing that as well though.

    Subsidy has been decoupled from production to satisfy the americans who were threatening to sulk if the EU didn't stop making direct subsidy payments to its farmers. Which is why we've now got a system that is effectively a financial reward for owning land. Zaza is quite correct about the horsey types claiming on 'amenity land' where they're apparently farming docks and old milk crates, but that's just the tip of the iceberg. a search on my postcode i'd say 1/3 of the recipients aren't active farmers at all. it favours the established over the new entrant and it encourages people to hold onto land and do little with it, reducing opportunities for people who want to get into farming

    I honestly don't think cheap food is the answer to anything anyway. food is cheaper now than it's ever been, and there are still people who need to rely on foodbanks to feed themselves. the problem is an inequality of wealth, more and more of the wealth our economy generates is funnelled to a small group of very rich individuals and companies.

    Thirty years ago, it might still have been (just) possible for a young man to start out in farming from nothing and think that one day, with hard work, he might get onto the farming ladder and be able to buy a farm or at least some land of his own. I think it would be very difficult to do this today. Farming has become a separate activity to land ownership, if we aren't careful we're looking at a future of huge estates owned by hedge funds and the super rich investors, claiming the sub and enjoying the tax advantages of active farmer status whilst large contract farming operations mine the soils to pump out cheap food, or rather, agricultural commodities.

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    Re: CAP subsidy payments website

    People, save your anger for the day of the referendum and do the right thing when the little polling station pencil is in your hand.

    Yes I know it won't be an instant fix getting out of the EU. I've always said that the willingness of the EU to churn out legislation allied to our power crazed public sector was always a toxic mix, and an "out" vote will only be a start. But still, without making that first move we will have no chance of getting back to something resembling sanity.

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    Re: CAP subsidy payments website

    Quote Originally Posted by matbrojoe View Post
    Thirty years ago, it might still have been (just) possible for a young man to start out in farming from nothing and think that one day, with hard work, he might get onto the farming ladder and be able to buy a farm or at least some land of his own. It was. I think it would be very difficult to do this today. Certainly more difficult than it was then, if not impossible. Farming has become a separate activity to land ownership, if we aren't careful we're looking at a future of huge estates owned by hedge funds and the super rich investors, claiming the sub and enjoying the tax advantages of active farmer status whilst large contract farming operations mine the soils to pump out cheap food, or rather, agricultural commodities.
    I bet there are so many youngsters who are desperate to start farming and I think it is very unfair that it must be nigh on impossible to do so. But that is the way the world is now. We are where we are. New blood can be a double-edged sword but without it the industry will get into a rut and a rut is a grave with the ends kicked out.

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    Re: CAP subsidy payments website

    With no EU in the frame, the CAP will cease to exist virtually overnight. No UK government would willingly hand out millions to an industry much less farming, regardless of what colour party you wish to mention. It makes no economic sense to be paying subsidies to a sector which does not employ that many people nationally, does not represent a major slice of the electorate and lastly, is not the largest generator of GDP compared to other sectors either.

    If the UK comes out of the EU, and it probably should, you can forget any kind of CAP ever again.

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    Re: CAP subsidy payments website

    Its simular to pumping money into Greece to artifically prop up , the sooner we pull the plug the better.

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    Re: CAP subsidy payments website

    Looking a the "details" section on a local farm I see that they have payments for "Non-productive investments" anybody know what would that be for?

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    Re: CAP subsidy payments website

    Quote Originally Posted by Uwork4menow View Post
    With no EU in the frame, the CAP will cease to exist virtually overnight. No UK government would willingly hand out millions to an industry much less farming, regardless of what colour party you wish to mention. It makes no economic sense to be paying subsidies to a sector which does not employ that many people nationally, does not represent a major slice of the electorate and lastly, is not the largest generator of GDP compared to other sectors either.

    If the UK comes out of the EU, and it probably should, you can forget any kind of CAP ever again.
    It's a good job we have the House of Lords to ensure the good of the country side.
    Unlike the rash lower classes in the Commons who are willing
    to dismiss subsidies , they will recognise the enormous unquantifiable benefits which stem from subsidised farming. The main one is that it keeps
    family farms in business to help maintain the rural infrastructure, and also helps keep the countryside tidy without having to employ armies of park wardens.

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    Re: CAP subsidy payments website

    Quote Originally Posted by bracken basher View Post
    Looking a the "details" section on a local farm I see that they have payments for "Non-productive investments" anybody know what would that be for?
    Probably to do with encouraging/ development of public attendance /participation /access / facilities

  26. #26
    Senior Member Bald Rick's Avatar
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    Re: CAP subsidy payments website

    Quote Originally Posted by Uwork4menow View Post
    With no EU in the frame, the CAP will cease to exist virtually overnight. No UK government would willingly hand out millions to an industry much less farming, regardless of what colour party you wish to mention. It makes no economic sense to be paying subsidies to a sector which does not employ that many people nationally, does not represent a major slice of the electorate and lastly, is not the largest generator of GDP compared to other sectors either.

    If the UK comes out of the EU, and it probably should, you can forget any kind of CAP ever again.
    I think you'll find renewables are subsidised way beyond their economic value to say nothing of nuclear power, rail franchises, road building firms, H2S etc etc etc.

    Cheap food giving the populace a full belly breeds contentment.

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    Re: CAP subsidy payments website

    Quote Originally Posted by b slicker View Post
    It's a good job we have the House of Lords to ensure the good of the country side.
    Unlike the rash lower classes in the Commons who are willing
    to dismiss subsidies , they will recognise the enormous unquantifiable benefits which stem from subsidised farming. The main one is that it keeps
    family farms in business to help maintain the rural infrastructure, and also helps keep the countryside tidy without having to employ armies of park wardens.
    Do we have a divine right to farm though, regardless of whether our businesses are viable or not? What's so unique about agriculture that the taxpayer should be expected to prop up businesses that would otherwise be loss making?

    UK farm subsidies cost around 3 billion a year, you'd employ a lot of park wardens for that.

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    Re: CAP subsidy payments website

    Quote Originally Posted by matbrojoe View Post
    Do we have a divine right to farm though, regardless of whether our businesses are viable or not? What's so unique about agriculture that the taxpayer should be expected to prop up businesses that would otherwise be loss making?

    UK farm subsidies cost around 3 billion a year, you'd employ a lot of park wardens for that.
    Ye Gods. When are some of you going to learn. The taxpayers are not propping up farming businesses. The taxpayer, in the form of central government, is underpinning a food policy in his/her own interest. That policy is in place to ensure that there is never a food shortage like there was during and after WW11 and that the food is at a price that is acceptable to the majority of the population.

    I like chocalate biscuits. I could go into a supermarket tomorrow and buy 100 packets of them and store them. I'm not subsidising the supermarket, I am ensuring that I have got enough chocolate biscuits to last me for the next 12 months.

    Central Government doesn't give a monkey's whether farmers are profitable or not. But they know damn well that if there was no milk on the supermarket shelves, no meat at the meat counter, and no bread at the bakery there would be rioting.

    I can just remember ration books. That was no laughing matter.

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    Re: CAP subsidy payments website

    Quote Originally Posted by zaza View Post
    Ye Gods. When are some of you going to learn. The taxpayers are not propping up farming businesses. The taxpayer, in the form of central government, is underpinning a food policy in his/her own interest. That policy is in place to ensure that there is never a food shortage like there was during and after WW11 and that the food is at a price that is acceptable to the majority of the population.

    I like chocalate biscuits. I could go into a supermarket tomorrow and buy 100 packets of them and store them. I'm not subsidising the supermarket, I am ensuring that I have got enough chocolate biscuits to last me for the next 12 months.

    Central Government doesn't give a monkey's whether farmers are profitable or not. But they know damn well that if there was no milk on the supermarket shelves, no meat at the meat counter, and no bread at the bakery there would be rioting.

    I can just remember ration books. That was no laughing matter.
    What day do you go shopping, I'll make sure I pop in the day before if you're going to shop like that .
    Stay in Northamptonshire - meadowviewcottages.co.uk

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    Re: CAP subsidy payments website

    Quote Originally Posted by foxbox View Post
    What day do you go shopping, I'll make sure I pop in the day before if you're going to shop like that .
    By and large I don't shop. But if I did, and I shopped like that then Mrs. zaza would consider that grounds for divorce I think.

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