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Thread: Dairy protests

  1. #61
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    Re: Dairy protests

    Quote Originally Posted by Einstien View Post
    "benefits of European Sales"

    Joke of the day?
    could well be, except i can't see anyone laughing.

    The problem with Arla is they are (understandably) looking after the interests of their owner producers, the majority of whom are not in the UK.

    A good friend of mine, not a chap prone to telling tall tales, is doing some work for a big Arla producer he tells me his boss is adamant that Arla are telling him to make more milk. I'd believe my friend, his boss may be talking rubbish mind i wouldn't know, but you'd wonder what they were thinking of it it was correct. Ultimately arla will look after the interests of Arla, which may not be congruent with the interests of UK dairying as a whole.

  2. #62
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    Re: Dairy protests

    Quote Originally Posted by 4wd View Post
    Dairy farmers should all join assurance schemes thus ensuring their product is highly regarded and attracts premium prices.
    Oh hang on ...

    Obviously beef and sheep should learn from this.
    More likely Insurance ........ our dairy is exploring allowing us to hedge some of our production at a fixed price over 2 years. As per in the USA

  3. #63
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    Re: Dairy protests

    The future surely lies in a futures type system. Ie you can sell X litres of milk at Y pence for Z months. The processors and buyers can then hedge themselves in futures and guarantee their supplies.

    One of my customers was heavily involved in Arla and he explained that in the Arla charter the company has agreed to purchase all milk produced by its members. If i understood him correctly that policy is set in stone and was from the outset.

    In time I am certain that the market will basically be comprised mostly of Arla and MW with the balance being made up of the local/regional buyers IE Wyke/Alvis etc who market a premium product.

    The larger volumes bought on a national basis becomes purely a numbers and efficiency game and so automatically favours big businesses with capital to hand. You need only see the scale of that plant at Bridgewater to know that their business is only going to grow purely because no one else can bottle milk or crank out product for less.

    The same thing happened in the brewing industry. The breweries got big, got bought out, got out or went micro and low volume. Sell your milk to the business that is one version of the above. There is no other choice. There cant be 9000 people making their own ice cream or cheese.

  4. #64

    Re: Dairy protests

    Quote Originally Posted by matbrojoe View Post
    could well be, except i can't see anyone laughing.

    The problem with Arla is they are (understandably) looking after the interests of their owner producers, the majority of whom are not in the UK.

    A good friend of mine, not a chap prone to telling tall tales, is doing some work for a big Arla producer he tells me his boss is adamant that Arla are telling him to make more milk. I'd believe my friend, his boss may be talking rubbish mind i wouldn't know, but you'd wonder what they were thinking of it it was correct. Ultimately arla will look after the interests of Arla, which may not be congruent with the interests of UK dairying as a whole.
    That would be at least a year out of date, then Arla were wanting more owner milk because they were buying third party milk at a high price. No one is saying we want more now, but Arla have always said that it regards it's job as being to find a home for every litre of milk it's owners produce and that it will pay an equal price for every litre. It doesn't mean they want more now, just that if it comes they will find a way of handling it.

    If the owner's decide to change that we can. I know it will be discussed at the next board meeting. In reality the latest member meetings seem to suggest a clear majority would rather continue with the current policy. Myself I would be uncomfortable with, say, a 5ml litre producer being able to stay as they were getting an A price on all their litres while a 500K litre producer was told he would get a lower B price on 200K litres of milk if he expanded to 700K litres.

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    Re: Dairy protests

    Quote Originally Posted by Farmer on a bike View Post
    That would be at least a year out of date, then Arla were wanting more owner milk because they were buying third party milk at a high price. No one is saying we want more now, but Arla have always said that it regards it's job as being to find a home for every litre of milk it's owners produce and that it will pay an equal price for every litre. It doesn't mean they want more now, just that if it comes they will find a way of handling it.

    If the owner's decide to change that we can. I know it will be discussed at the next board meeting. In reality the latest member meetings seem to suggest a clear majority would rather continue with the current policy. Myself I would be uncomfortable with, say, a 5ml litre producer being able to stay as they were getting an A price on all their litres while a 500K litre producer was told he would get a lower B price on 200K litres of milk if he expanded to 700K litres.

    So FOAB Is it Arla who took all the extra milk from the Gold Cup winner ? With an extra 520 cows ??

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    Re: Dairy protests

    Quote Originally Posted by Argyll View Post
    So FOAB Is it Arla who took all the extra milk from the Gold Cup winner ? With an extra 520 cows ??
    I might be talking complete nonsense but I heard on the grapevine all their milk is now sold to Alvis to make cheese. Not sure if it is true or not because they aren't in my area.

    As an aside, some here may or may not realise that the chap in question used to make his own cheese for a considerable time but stopped. It would thus not be surprising for him to then subsequently invest a lot of money in straight milk production and then sell the resultant product to a very reputable local cheese maker.

  7. #67

    Re: Dairy protests

    Quote Originally Posted by Uwork4menow View Post
    I might be talking complete nonsense but I heard on the grapevine all their milk is now sold to Alvis to make cheese. Not sure if it is true or not because they aren't in my area.

    As an aside, some here may or may not realise that the chap in question used to make his own cheese for a considerable time but stopped. It would thus not be surprising for him to then subsequently invest a lot of money in straight milk production and then sell the resultant product to a very reputable local cheese maker.
    Sorry he is an Arla owner and supplier. Just as when he had his own cheese business he wanted a stake and return from the processing of his milk.

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    Re: Dairy protests

    Quote Originally Posted by Einstien View Post
    "benefits of European Sales"

    Joke of the day?
    The founders of Arla and many other dairy co ops around the world had the vision and foresight to set up processing factories to allow members of the coops to take some of the returns available from further up the supply chain, the profits from that side of the business are generally distributed back to members. (If the co-operatives stick to the Rochdale principles those returns will be via the milk cheque and not as a dividend payment).

    Most of Arlas sales are still in Europe so all members of the co-op should receive the benefits of those sales. Including the fully paid up members in the UK.

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    Re: Dairy protests

    Quote Originally Posted by Uwork4menow View Post

    There cant be 9000 people making their own ice cream or cheese.
    No there can't be 9000 people making their own ice cream or cheese. There can be 9000 producers who own the companies that make the ice cream, cheese and anything else.

    It is already being done around the world by Arla,Friesland Campina,Fonterra etc etc.

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    Re: Dairy protests

    Quote Originally Posted by Stewart View Post
    No there can't be 9000 people making their own ice cream or cheese. There can be 9000 producers who own the companies that make the ice cream, cheese and anything else.

    It is already being done around the world by Arla,Friesland Campina,Fonterra etc etc.
    So you get 1/9000th of the benefit... Doh

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    Re: Dairy protests

    I don't see why people think the supermarkets have all the power here - the processors are the ones that need to smarten up, I know some left wingers may call it a cartel, but the milk processors could easily work for each other rather than against and push the price to supermarkets up....

    2+2 may equal 4, but so does 3+1 remember!

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    Re: Dairy protests

    Off the wall thinking here.....
    From a non Dairy Farmer....
    Interested to read this this morning...
    http://harrisonandhetherington.co.uk...d%20260815.pdf

    So for a small family farm. Reduced milk output that apparently there is little market for, so not that much of a problem.
    Cows look to be excellent dual purpose shapes........Males should be marketable in the commercial beef market, unlike current B/W Holst.
    There should be a market for spare females as suckler replacements.......Heifers with a calf at foot good ones are currently 2k plus.
    Would this not be an easier way to diversify than manufacturing milk, running a milk round, making and marketing cheese etc etc.
    As I said off the wall from a non dairy farmer. As a youngster I can well remember excellent Suckler cows being sourced from British Friesian Cows crossed with a Hereford bull.....

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    Re: Dairy protests

    If processors are the ones holding the power (as you say) then what is the problem with people becoming shareholders as with the Arla example if those same shareholders then get their fair share of the profits later on?

    As for forming a cartel- well the market is already forming an oligoply situation- the market is held mostly in the hands of a few relatively large businesses. In time no doubt Muller and Arla will hold the lions share of volume, if they don't already. What you do not want is a weak player who is forced by their own financial situation to start selling product are vastly lower prices/margins as this only serves to weaken the rest- hence DFoB selling cheese that wasn't even matured at a serious discount in order to keep the wolf from the door.

    The exact same thing happened in the European brewing industry.

  14. #74
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    Re: Dairy protests

    Quote Originally Posted by Gee View Post
    Off the wall thinking here.....
    From a non Dairy Farmer....
    Interested to read this this morning...
    http://harrisonandhetherington.co.uk...d%20260815.pdf

    So for a small family farm. Reduced milk output that apparently there is little market for, so not that much of a problem.
    Cows look to be excellent dual purpose shapes........Males should be marketable in the commercial beef market, unlike current B/W Holst.
    There should be a market for spare females as suckler replacements.......Heifers with a calf at foot good ones are currently 2k plus.
    Would this not be an easier way to diversify than manufacturing milk, running a milk round, making and marketing cheese etc etc.
    As I said off the wall from a non dairy farmer. As a youngster I can well remember excellent Suckler cows being sourced from British Friesian Cows crossed with a Hereford bull.....


    The Holstein put paid to that.
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    Re: Dairy protests

    Quote Originally Posted by Einstien View Post
    So you get 1/9000th of the benefit... Doh
    Yes and you share in the benefits from the other 8999 producers.If you do not agree with co-operative principles, or simply do not like them there is no compulsion to join. You can of course carry on producing a basic commodity and accept the basic commodity price for it.

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    Re: Dairy protests

    Quote Originally Posted by Stewart View Post
    Yes and you share in the benefits from the other 8999 producers.If you do not agree with co-operative principles, or simply do not like them there is no compulsion to join. You can of course carry on producing a basic commodity and accept the basic commodity price for it.
    Agreed - no need to join, then choose yourself - basic product/basic costs/basic price.... or maybe premium product/premium price if you can find one....

    "Benefits from the other 8999 producers" - what exactly do you think these are (other than volume which we kinda know isn't really a benefit)?

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    Re: Dairy protests

    Do not shoot the messenger!

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/c...lk-crisis.html

    Salutory.

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    Re: Dairy protests

    Quote Originally Posted by Gee View Post
    Do not shoot the messenger!

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/c...lk-crisis.html

    Salutory.

    ... he does have a point and I was agreeing with him until I got to "there are still a significant number of inefficient producers in the system who should consider their future in the industry"

    [and it wasn't until I got to end I realised it was written by
    Neil Davidson: "chief executive of Arla Foods until 2005 and before that Express Dairies. He was made a CBE in 2006 for services to the dairy industry".]

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    Re: Dairy protests

    So much depends on how you measure efficiency.

    By modern standards these folk are less than efficient but hats off to them for identifying and filling a niche

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    Re: Dairy protests

    Quote Originally Posted by Einstien View Post
    So you get 1/9000th of the benefit... Doh
    If most dairy farmers are making a loss, then surely a 0.011% share in a profit making enterprise will still be a better return than on their 100% owned loss making enterprise........

  21. #81
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    Re: Dairy protests

    Quote Originally Posted by tom View Post

    ... he does have a point and I was agreeing with him until I got to "there are still a significant number of inefficient producers in the system who should consider their future in the industry"

    [and it wasn't until I got to end I realised it was written by
    Neil Davidson: "chief executive of Arla Foods until 2005 and before that Express Dairies. He was made a CBE in 2006 for services to the dairy industry".]
    Remember the bit about the messenger!!!
    Hard facts though!

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    Re: Dairy protests

    Quote Originally Posted by Einstien View Post
    Agreed - no need to join, then choose yourself - basic product/basic costs/basic price.... or maybe premium product/premium price if you can find one....

    "Benefits from the other 8999 producers" - what exactly do you think these are (other than volume which we kinda know isn't really a benefit)?
    The benefits of being involved in a vertically integrated co-operative are that you are not just producing a commodity, you are also receiving some of the return from selling the product. The volume is only a benefit to the processor, with 9000 dairy farmers working together there is significant volume, you also have some control in the market, reducing the ability of the buyers to play producers off one against the other.

    There is a market for premium products, which although lucrative, is relativly small, under a co-operative all owners share in the proceeds from that market.

    I was in the UK in June and the industry seems very divisive, with those on a supermarket receiving higher milk price than the rest. (Which is ironic given the bad press supermarkets receive from farmers). Is that a good thing for the industry in general?

  23. #83
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    Re: Dairy protests

    Quote Originally Posted by Stewart View Post

    I was in the UK in June and the industry seems very divisive, with those on a supermarket receiving higher milk price than the rest. (Which is ironic given the bad press supermarkets receive from farmers). Is that a good thing for the industry in general?
    It has done nothing but divide many in the industry,there are some have's and many more have not's there are some still getting 27-32ppl and others getting 12-15ppl

    for the same product, and stupidly the NFU praised these contracts when they were set up for liquid, but did nothing for any other dairy products like butter and

    cheese from which they make margins of 40-60% on. The real challenge is how to get some of that margin back to producers!!

  24. #84
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    Re: Dairy protests

    Quote Originally Posted by wr. View Post
    If Landrover had progressed at the same level as British agriculture in the last 40 years, we'd all be driving them. I sat in a newish one last week and it's not changed a great deal (in the cab) from my brother's series one. The same was true of DB. I look at my 1947 Cropmaster and my 1983 1490 and there isn't a massive amount of difference. I jump in my 1983 JD 3040 and it's a world apart as far as comfort and technology goes. I always tell people, when talking about my DB's, " When they stopped making David Brown, I went to second best and bought a John Deere.) A local contractor has a go at me for running JD's but he doesn't say that his NH was actually built in Italy.
    Sorry to go off subject and I'm not "having a go" at you db. It's a shame that there are not more British machinery firms still around because at one time they led the world with their inventions and innovations.
    I have imported Caravaggi mill/mixers for thirty years. We have had a great deal to do with the design and evolution of these machines. I would always have wished to produce them in the UK, they are not all that sophisticated to make. I tried to get bank support to produce them but gave up years ago.
    In the early days all we had to do was fax across an order and the Caravaggi firm could show the order to the bank, the Italian government would guarantee export credi/pre-production finance and in due time we could collect the machines from Italy. Both myself and my sons have enjoyed many trips to Italy.
    Ransomes tried to develop a new model of combine, Wedgie Benn refused to help, the Germans stepped in and supported Claas, I could go on .

    On our own we are not a big enough market to justify numbers and development costs. I find it sad but as a nation we have no balls, and in any case the nimbys usually stifle everything that might suggest progress. The price of democracy I suppose.
    Jack Caley

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    Re: Dairy protests

    Quote Originally Posted by tom View Post

    ... he does have a point and I was agreeing with him until I got to "there are still a significant number of inefficient producers in the system who should consider their future in the industry"

    [and it wasn't until I got to end I realised it was written by
    Neil Davidson: "chief executive of Arla Foods until 2005 and before that Express Dairies. He was made a CBE in 2006 for services to the dairy industry".]
    Neil Davidsons figure of redundancies in North Sea oil are hardly comparable. North Sea oil production, I believe, halved in five years, so therefore it is hardly likely to employ as many.

    I have compared the dairy industry with the pig industry before. The pig industry has more than halved in twenty years, from about 800-900 , 000 sows to about 400,000.
    If only 25 %of the milk is going to liquid sales it follows that supermarket/processor price pressure will eventually force out more than half of producers. Whether that is a good thing for food security and balance of payments, only a short sighted government can fail to see that. However they are mad keen to support a fracking industry.

    Jack Caley

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    Re: Dairy protests

    Quote Originally Posted by Stewart View Post
    The benefits of being involved in a vertically integrated co-operative are that you are not just producing a commodity, you are also receiving some of the return from selling the product. The volume is only a benefit to the processor, with 9000 dairy farmers working together there is significant volume, you also have some control in the market, reducing the ability of the buyers to play producers off one against the other.

    There is a market for premium products, which although lucrative, is relativly small, under a co-operative all owners share in the proceeds from that market.

    I was in the UK in June and the industry seems very divisive, with those on a supermarket receiving higher milk price than the rest. (Which is ironic given the bad press supermarkets receive from farmers). Is that a good thing for the industry in general?

    Fair point Stewart, although having a non-uniform market was the whole intention of the government when they liberalised the industry and scrapped the MMB? You seem to be implying it would be better to have the opposite? You may be right, but under EU competition laws, you can't have it.

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    Re: Dairy protests

    Quote Originally Posted by Uwork4menow View Post
    Fair point Stewart, although having a non-uniform market was the whole intention of the government when they liberalised the industry and scrapped the MMB? You seem to be implying it would be better to have the opposite? You may be right, but under EU competition laws, you can't have it.
    I would not advocate a return of the MMB which was a statutory body not a processing co-operative.

    Why would a co-operative not be allowed under EU competition laws? The EU actively encourages producer co-ops and over 60% of EU agricultural produce is processed and marketed through a co-operative structure.

    Arla and FrieslandCampina are both European co-ops that have operated in the EU for years with apparently no problems under EU competition laws.

  28. #88
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    Re: Dairy protests

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Caley View Post
    I have imported Caravaggi mill/mixers for thirty years. We have had a great deal to do with the design and evolution of these machines. I would always have wished to produce them in the UK, they are not all that sophisticated to make. I tried to get bank support to produce them but gave up years ago.
    In the early days all we had to do was fax across an order and the Caravaggi firm could show the order to the bank, the Italian government would guarantee export credi/pre-production finance and in due time we could collect the machines from Italy. Both myself and my sons have enjoyed many trips to Italy.
    Ransomes tried to develop a new model of combine, Wedgie Benn refused to help, the Germans stepped in and supported Claas, I could go on .

    On our own we are not a big enough market to justify numbers and development costs. I find it sad but as a nation we have no balls, and in any case the nimbys usually stifle everything that might suggest progress. The price of democracy I suppose.
    Jack Caley

    Outright publicity maybe, click on the website below!!
    Politicians are easily seduced by the current sexy fantasy industrial project........zillions suddenly can be found to support and finance the latest schemes....
    Support for a small time practical engineering scheme.......errrr it's just not sexy enough to twiddle the strings that connect to a politicos thought process!

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    Re: Dairy protests

    Quote Originally Posted by Stewart View Post

    Why would a co-operative not be allowed under EU competition laws? The EU actively encourages producer co-ops and over 60% of EU agricultural produce is processed and marketed through a co-operative structure.

    Arla and FrieslandCampina are both European co-ops that have operated in the EU for years with apparently no problems under EU competition laws.

    In 1980 a group of farmers in West Yorkshire did indeed attempt to form a co-operative to sell their own milk (Hilldale Farms Dairy) and very successful they were at it too - they were ultimately hounded out of existence by henchmen from top heavy MMB.

    Arla and FrieslandCampina were already well on the way to becoming mega co-ops by the time the UK stopped hounding those who were prepared to look out for themselves.
    Last edited by Courier; 15-09-15 at 07:29 AM.
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    Re: Dairy protests

    Quote Originally Posted by Courier View Post
    In 1980 a group of farmers in West Yorkshire did indeed attempt to form a co-operative to sell their own milk (Hildale Farms Dairy) and very successful they were at it too - they were ultimately hounded out of existence by henchmen from top heavy MMB.

    Arla and FrieslandCampina were already well on the way to becoming mega co-ops by the time the UK stopped hounding those who were prepared to look out for themselves.
    Courier you are spot on the government in this country tied our hands behind our backs and let the Dane's and the Germans come in and take over our UK dairy

    industry!!

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