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Thread: That's not my cattle on my land!

  1. #31
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    Re: That's not my cattle on my land!

    Quote Originally Posted by brigadoon View Post
    Not with a bargepole - life is too short for that nonsense - settlement on vacant possession or not at all

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    Good post but I would add, as advised earlier, to buy brains or, as above, to walk away from it.

    And for all those who advocate ploughing and any other such forum/bar room bravado consider this. Does the OP have a barn ? Are there combustible materials in it (hay, straw, etc) And can any of those who advocate aggressive action categorically assuaged the OP that such assets will never go up in flames if the grazier gets to the stage of really being p!$$3d off ?????

    All for 3 acres ???

  2. #32
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    Re: That's not my cattle on my land!

    Quote Originally Posted by timhaven View Post
    Ploughing your own field up to get rid of squatters could land you in jail? Well now I've heard everything.
    let us put it another way.

    How would feel if a new landlord came and ploughed up a field you had tenanted for the last 15 years?
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  3. #33
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    Re: That's not my cattle on my land!

    Quote Originally Posted by Exfarmer View Post
    let us put it another way.

    How would feel if a new landlord came and ploughed up a field you had tenanted for the last 15 years?
    Quite right, but as the OP mentioned "freebie tenant", I assume the Tenant hasn't ever paid any rent. Therefore in my book he's a squatter. If the OP hasn't actually bought the land yet, I'd wash my hands of it. If he's done the deed, then get the plough out. If I come across a brand new Range Rover which I take a fancy to, could I break in and take adverse possession?

  4. #34
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    Re: That's not my cattle on my land!

    Quote Originally Posted by timhaven View Post
    Quite right, but as the OP mentioned "freebie tenant", I assume the Tenant hasn't ever paid any rent. Therefore in my book he's a squatter. If the OP hasn't actually bought the land yet, I'd wash my hands of it. If he's done the deed, then get the plough out. If I come across a brand new Range Rover which I take a fancy to, could I break in and take adverse possession?
    No. Because you would not have had the benefit for the required period of time. In any event it may be that adverse possession only applies to land and property. I'm not sure about that.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Quattromike's Avatar
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    Re: That's not my cattle on my land!

    I don't think adverse possession is an issue, as far as I understand in Scotland you have to have registered the property in your name and then have 10 years unhindered possession of the land before you can attempt to claim ownership and even then it is looked upon as suspicious. I don't think this has happened. The issue will be getting the occupier and his cattle to move on when the time comes.
    "At the end of the day, I think it's going to get very dark."

  6. #36
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    Re: That's not my cattle on my land!

    Quote Originally Posted by Exfarmer View Post
    can only comment on English law and Scottish, may be very different on this.
    If the cattle have been there for several years and the owner has received any sort of payment, possibly in kind, by the tenant fencing and keeping tidy.
    Then the man with the cattle, has got a de facto tenancy, and any attempt to evict him, would be considered a serious offence!
    If the Landowner has never received rent or tried to evict the grazier, then he may have a claim to adverse
    possession.
    It's not been possible to create an agricultural AHA tenancy since 1996, when the law was changed in England and Wales, so unless the guy can prove he's been there for over 20 years, then he won't have much chance of claiming a tenancy. also i don't believe he could claim adverse possession if he had been there with the permission of the owner.

    The law in Scotland is different, there's an outside chance he could claim some sort of 'short teerm' tenancy by overstaying a grazing agreement, see below

    http://w.murraystable.com/assets/fil...0Landlords.pdf

    However, to any sort of legal claim would require a significant cost in solicitor's fees, if the guy hasn't got a pot to piss in, how's he going to pay for all this? Even if he got a tenancy, he's still got to pay a market rent for the land, and it seems he's not to keen on paying rent



    Whichever is the situation proceed with great care!

    The legality of the cattle with regards to tagging etc. is entirely irrelevant, to the graziers rights.
    It's kind of relevant, what's he going to occupy the field with when trading standards have skipped his unregistered cattle?

    some of the comments here could land someone in jail
    Don't be silly, this is a civil matter. someone could be landed with a big solicitor's bill, but no one's going to prison for moving his cows to another field, for starters how could it be proved that they hadn't simply got out of their own accord and been put back in a different field by a concerned citizen?

  7. #37
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    Re: That's not my cattle on my land!

    This waffle all drives me mad, Adverse Possession, isn't there for someone who has been taking the pi$$ to be able to obtain land!

    I see it as a bonus to buy the land cheaper (if the current owner just can't be bothered to deal with it). Then grow some balls and remove them, easily done within the law still.


    Why is there a certain breed of people who think they are entitled to not follow the rules of society, and think they can get something from nothing. OK OK I don't know all the details, but it doesn't sound like this is someone that has been genuinely renting the land for the last 20 odd years without being asked to leave at some point.

  8. #38
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    Re: That's not my cattle on my land!

    Quote Originally Posted by matbrojoe View Post
    Don't be silly, this is a civil matter. someone could be landed with a big solicitor's bill, but no one's going to prison for moving his cows to another field, for starters how could it be proved that they hadn't simply got out of their own accord and been put back in a different field by a concerned citizen?
    In English law, Landlords harassing tenants, are treated very harshly and often go to jail
    I do appreciate this is not the same as a house, but the legislation is there.
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  9. #39
    Senior Member b slicker's Avatar
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    Re: That's not my cattle on my land!

    If the cattle are tagged, try to read at least one tag.

    The ear tag of any cattle can be entered on the BCMS website and it will give the DOB, place of birth and all reported movements.

    If the cattle don't have ear tags, check with the owner of the land if they were born there.

    If they weren't, I wouldn't have thought the alleged owner had any right to move them onto the land in question.

  10. #40
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    Re: That's not my cattle on my land!

    Quote Originally Posted by b slicker View Post
    If the cattle are tagged, try to read at least one tag.

    The ear tag of any cattle can be entered on the BCMS website and it will give the DOB, place of birth and all reported movements.

    If the cattle don't have ear tags, check with the owner of the land if they were born there.

    If they weren't, I wouldn't have thought the alleged owner had any right to move them onto the land in question.
    From BCMS / CTS ....

    The level of detail you can see depends on whether the animal is, or has been, on your holding.
    • If you are the animal's keeper you will see the history in full.
    • If the animal has left your holding, you will see full details of the movements up to the date when it left. After this you will only see the dates of movement and the county of the holding it has moved to.
    • If the animal has never been on your holding, you will only see the dates of movement and the limited details of locations.



  11. #41
    Senior Member Quattromike's Avatar
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    Re: That's not my cattle on my land!

    Quote Originally Posted by Einstien View Post

    I see it as a bonus to buy the land cheaper (if the current owner just can't be bothered to deal with it). Then grow some balls and remove them, easily done within the law still.
    .
    What would be the best way to get a land occupier to move on with cattle within the law and not costing the earth in legal fees or a life time of asking please . On this occasion he has been asked to move on a few months back by the owners solicitor and he imitted he would just needed a week or to sort out his passports but he's still there.
    "At the end of the day, I think it's going to get very dark."

  12. #42
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    Re: That's not my cattle on my land!

    Quote Originally Posted by Quattromike View Post
    What would be the best way to get a land occupier to move on with cattle within the law and not costing the earth in legal fees or a life time of asking please . On this occasion he has been asked to move on a few months back by the owners solicitor and he imitted he would just needed a week or to sort out his passports but he's still there.
    You really need to seek professional advice from a expert in Scottish land law. I think you'd need to issue an eviction notice that complied with the requisite legislation then if your man ignored it you'd need to get ta court order and set the bailiffs on him. this link gives the tenants rights under Scottish law if given an eviction notice, though this would be for tenants who have paid their rent:

    http://scotland.shelter.org.uk/get_a...our_lease_ends

    If the guy has said he'll vacate but not complied, he could just be a chancer who will hang on as long as he can and won't move unless an ultimatum is given, and as long as he hears no more from the vendor's solicitors he'll sit tight. Really the vendor needs to get onto his solicitor and get him to pull his finger out and evict the squatter, i'd imagine that even if he refused to budge, getting him shifted would be no different than getting a court order to move the pikeys on.

  13. #43
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    Re: That's not my cattle on my land!

    Well sounds to me like the owner of the cattle moved them off and they have escaped back onto your expensive crop of hay grass.

    Put his cattle back on his land if he has some somewhere else??? Simple?

  14. #44
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    Re: That's not my cattle on my land!

    Quote Originally Posted by matbrojoe View Post
    You really need to seek professional advice from a expert in Scottish land law. I think you'd need to issue an eviction notice that complied with the requisite legislation then if your man ignored it you'd need to get ta court order and set the bailiffs on him. this link gives the tenants rights under Scottish law if given an eviction notice, though this would be for tenants who have paid their rent:

    http://scotland.shelter.org.uk/get_a...our_lease_ends

    If the guy has said he'll vacate but not complied, he could just be a chancer who will hang on as long as he can and won't move unless an ultimatum is given, and as long as he hears no more from the vendor's solicitors he'll sit tight. Really the vendor needs to get onto his solicitor and get him to pull his finger out and evict the squatter, i'd imagine that even if he refused to budge, getting him shifted would be no different than getting a court order to move the pikeys on.
    The link to the landlord and tenants rights has some interesting reading, thing is I don't think this guy actually pays rent. I think he has inadvertently moved on to the field and is squatting of a sort. Only people that would know for sure is the owner and the occupier, neither of whom is easy to get a straight answer out of.
    "At the end of the day, I think it's going to get very dark."

  15. #45
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    Re: That's not my cattle on my land!

    Quote Originally Posted by Quattromike View Post
    Only people that would know for sure is the owner and the occupier, neither of whom is easy to get a straight answer out of.
    If you can't get a straight answer out of the owner, I think you have to assume he's given permission at some point for the occupier to be there, even if there was no rent paid, and he now realises he's cocked up.

    I've had this myself from the hobby farmer next door when I've been asked if I could 'loan' him some cows to keep his field under control when he's been 'between' livestock

  16. #46
    Senior Member Quattromike's Avatar
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    Re: That's not my cattle on my land!

    It's more the fact he is not easy to contact as all dealings are through a solicitor which takes for ever the get all the questions asked to get the one answer you need.
    "At the end of the day, I think it's going to get very dark."

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    Re: That's not my cattle on my land!

    Quote Originally Posted by Quattromike View Post
    It's more the fact he is not easy to contact as all dealings are through a solicitor which takes for ever the get all the questions asked to get the one answer you need.
    Ah, that's not making it any easier.
    If it was me, I'd make him a written offer for the full asking price (not the discounted price), conditional on vacant possession before completion, and leave him to stew on it.
    I guess it all depends how much you want the field

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    Re: That's not my cattle on my land!

    Quote Originally Posted by Quattromike View Post
    It's more the fact he is not easy to contact as all dealings are through a solicitor which takes for ever the get all the questions asked to get the one answer you need.
    Don't mess with solicitors, might as well make a pile of notes in the field and burn them, see if that helps move them!! Sort the cattle out, and let the owner of the cattle pay all the solicitors costs if he thinks he has some sort of claim - if he was given notice ages ago and just said he needed a little more time, he'll just pay a solicitor to tell him to stop being stupid!

    Has the field been purchased yet?

    Do you know the owner of the cattle?

    Do they have tags?

    Does the owner of the cattle have land elsewhere?

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    Re: That's not my cattle on my land!

    ^ You remind me of the kid in the school playground who yells FIGHT, FIGHT, FIGHT!! every time there's an argument.

    Then, when it all kicks off, he's hiding in the toilet sniggering..........

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    Re: That's not my cattle on my land!

    Quote Originally Posted by MC130 View Post
    ^ You remind me of the kid in the school playground who yells FIGHT, FIGHT, FIGHT!! every time there's an argument.

    Then, when it all kicks off, he's hiding in the toilet sniggering..........

    Why? because I've asked 4 prominent questions which until we know the answers to there is absolutely no point in commenting really.... If anything it's stopping all this waffle/fighting about what to do when we don't know any of the information :-)

  21. #51
    Senior Member Quattromike's Avatar
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    Re: That's not my cattle on my land!

    Quote Originally Posted by Einstien View Post

    Has the field been purchased yet?

    Do you know the owner of the cattle?

    Do they have tags?

    Does the owner of the cattle have land elsewhere?
    No.

    Yes my father has had dealings in the past.

    Some do some don't .

    No just this field and the 2acres along from it with anothe 3 cattle in.

    This next week should find out what everyone's hand is, if the occupier moves or if the seller has an explanation. It was May I think the first letter to quit was sent to the occupier so he's should have had enough time. Will see how much the seller pushes if legal action commences if it is not already. I rather think the seller is not too bothered about selling and will send the odd letter out and if the occupier moves then it's a bonus.
    "At the end of the day, I think it's going to get very dark."

  22. #52
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    Re: That's not my cattle on my land!

    Quote Originally Posted by Quattromike View Post
    No.
    So do nothing yet (anything you do, like reporting the un-tagged animals may hinder you/the sale) and buy the land if you want it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Quattromike View Post
    Yes my father has had dealings in the past.
    So you probably already know if this is just stubbornness/taking the pi$$ etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Quattromike View Post
    Some do some don't .
    Ignore this for now (the ones that don't, I guess it depends on age and if they have just lost them)

    Quote Originally Posted by Quattromike View Post
    No just this field and the 2acres along from it with anothe 3 cattle in.
    Do you mean the owner of the cattle does have another 2 acre field? Perfect - that's a destination for the cattle

    Quote Originally Posted by Quattromike View Post
    This next week should find out what everyone's hand is, if the occupier moves or if the seller has an explanation. It was May I think the first letter to quit was sent to the occupier so he's should have had enough time. Will see how much the seller pushes if legal action commences if it is not already. I rather think the seller is not too bothered about selling and will send the odd letter out and if the occupier moves then it's a bonus.
    Just sounds like the owner of the field has put it up for sale as a means to try and speed up an eviction!

  23. #53
    Senior Member Quattromike's Avatar
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    Re: That's not my cattle on my land!

    Quote Originally Posted by Einstien View Post


    Do you mean the owner of the cattle does have another 2 acre field? Perfect - that's a destination for the cattle


    its the current owner of the field that has another field and the occupier has cattle in there as well. that field is also for sale.
    "At the end of the day, I think it's going to get very dark."

  24. #54
    Senior Member Huffy's Avatar
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    Re: That's not my cattle on my land!

    I wouldn't touch it either . The owner must realise he has a problem getting him to move and sees you as an easy way out , even if he has to take less than vacant possession .

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    Re: That's not my cattle on my land!

    Quote Originally Posted by Quattromike View Post
    its the current owner of the field that has another field and the occupier has cattle in there as well. that field is also for sale.
    Right - are you looking to buy both fields or just one?

    Do you have it in writing that there is no official tenancy, or that any assumed tenancy has been given appropriate notice (this can be 12 months from the next March or something odd like that, I would have to check). You stated above that the owner of the cattle said he "just needed a little more time" so has accepted the notice.


    The obvious answer if just buying one is, buy the one you want, move cattle to the other and ensure its locked, remove water tank etc, photograph it empty.

    Still sounds to me like the owner of the land has just put it up for sale to shift the guy on, and probably wont let the land go.

  26. #56
    Senior Member Quattromike's Avatar
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    Re: That's not my cattle on my land!

    It's official the date came and went and the cattle never moved so the occupier obviously has no intention of moving. The land is for sale as the lengths depths the solicitor went to ensure all deeds and documents were in order and there was full cooperation on both sides, the owners solicitor were apparently unaware there was someone occupying the land and were seeking clarification from the owner on the situation and nothing has been heard this last week . As mentioned the new purchaser is not parting with the money until vacant possession is obtained. So I'm not sure if that can happen or if the current owner is stuck with the occupier.
    "At the end of the day, I think it's going to get very dark."

  27. #57
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    Re: That's not my cattle on my land!

    Quote Originally Posted by Quattromike View Post
    It's official the date came and went and the cattle never moved so the occupier obviously has no intention of moving. The land is for sale as the lengths depths the solicitor went to ensure all deeds and documents were in order and there was full cooperation on both sides, the owners solicitor were apparently unaware there was someone occupying the land and were seeking clarification from the owner on the situation and nothing has been heard this last week . As mentioned the new purchaser is not parting with the money until vacant possession is obtained. So I'm not sure if that can happen or if the current owner is stuck with the occupier.
    Sounds complicated and possibly expensive for the current owner then....
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    Re: That's not my cattle on my land!

    Quote Originally Posted by Quattromike View Post
    It's official the date came and went and the cattle never moved so the occupier obviously has no intention of moving. The land is for sale as the lengths depths the solicitor went to ensure all deeds and documents were in order and there was full cooperation on both sides, the owners solicitor were apparently unaware there was someone occupying the land and were seeking clarification from the owner on the situation and nothing has been heard this last week . As mentioned the new purchaser is not parting with the money until vacant possession is obtained. So I'm not sure if that can happen or if the current owner is stuck with the occupier.
    See, I bet the sale was just part of the solicitors increasingly complex money making method of getting the job done.... Takes the pi$$

  29. #59
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    Re: That's not my cattle on my land!

    Simple phrase included in sale docs "with vacant possession" no mention no sale......up to the vendor to sort out.

  30. #60
    Senior Member Quattromike's Avatar
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    Re: That's not my cattle on my land!

    Just putting this out there.
    In a case like this when a seller has advertised for sale with vacant possession and someone come along and says "I'll take you up on that" and is instructed to contact the solicitor to make an offer which is done and the the seller agrees and allot of leg work is done on both sides to ensure everything is in order with titles and such but when it come to it the seller does not have vacant possession to sell. Can the buyer who has had his solicitor do a bit of work on the matter make a claim for time wasting on the seller?
    "At the end of the day, I think it's going to get very dark."

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