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Thread: Rolling resistance

  1. #1
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    Rolling resistance

    My principal question to the BFF Brains Trust is this: will my MF4225 pull a 7t. sheep's foot (padfoot) roller?

    The tractor's Nebraska Test says it will pull 3.6t. How does that figure relate to pulling said roller, which will be 1500mm in diameter and could be up to 2.0m wide, on a (nominally) 150 - 200mm thick layer of clay?

    JV
    Last edited by john maddock; 27-03-21 at 12:12 PM. Reason: Clarity
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    Re: Rolling resistance

    Quote Originally Posted by john maddock View Post
    My principal question to the BFF Brains Trust is this: will my MF4225 pull a 7t. sheep's foot (padfoot) roller?

    The tractor's Nebraska Test says it will pull 3.6t. How does that figure relate to pulling said roller, which will be 1500mm in diameter and could be up to 2.0m wide, on a (nominally) 150 - 200mm thick layer of clay?

    JV
    This opens a whole bunch of questions
    • was the test performed as a straight "drag" or with something that is rollable?
    • is the roller attached with bearings or is it a simple steel2steel set-up (steel shaft inside a pipe)?
      • if it is steel2steel, what diameter is the pipe (bigger is better)?
      • if it is steel2steel, is there any way to add some grease fittings to lube the

    • is the roller solidly filled or does it fill with a fluid, like water?

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    Re: Rolling resistance

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironhead View Post
    This opens a whole bunch of questions
    • was the test performed as a straight "drag" or with something that is rollable?
    • is the roller attached with bearings or is it a simple steel2steel set-up (steel shaft inside a pipe)?
      • if it is steel2steel, what diameter is the pipe (bigger is better)?
      • if it is steel2steel, is there any way to add some grease fittings to lube the

    • is the roller solidly filled or does it fill with a fluid, like water?
    Good questions Ironhead.

    I don't know how the Nebraska test was conducted coz that info came from here:

    http://www.tractordata.com/farm-trac...225-tests.html

    No info that I can see if the tractor test reported on was 2WD or FWA. (And I remembered the pull inaccurately).

    The OECD test is here:

    https://tractortestlab.unl.edu/Masse...son%204225.pdf

    and the FWA tractor in this test pulled only 4k pounds!

    As to the roller, I haven't built it yet. Propose to weld a set of padfoot shells together, use standard pillow block bearings on the shaft, use thick walled RHS for the frame with a weight tray - and fill the shells with concrete. Width as yet undetermined.

    I'm guessing that wheel spin will be the limiting factor, coz the tractor I have is only 2WD, but the test figures seem low when I consider how it handles the round baler, which would weigh around 1.5t., I think.

    That's why I used the subject line of "Rolling resistance", coz it seems to me that that is the big variable.

    JV'
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    Re: Rolling resistance

    I think those drawbar pull tests are done with a very heavy test rig connected via a strain gauge. Apply the brakes on the rig till the tractor can't pull it and read the max value on the gauge.

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    Re: Rolling resistance

    Quote Originally Posted by john maddock View Post
    My principal question to the BFF Brains Trust is this: will my MF4225 pull a 7t. sheep's foot (padfoot) roller?

    The tractor's Nebraska Test says it will pull 3.6t. How does that figure relate to pulling said roller, which will be 1500mm in diameter and could be up to 2.0m wide, on a (nominally) 150 - 200mm thick layer of clay?

    JV
    far more importantly, Can it stop said roller going downhill?
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    Re: Rolling resistance

    Quote Originally Posted by Exfarmer View Post
    far more importantly, Can it stop said roller going downhill?
    Ha! Well spotted Ex! I hadn't thought about that, but it's obviously a potential trap. Since the roller will be used to consolidate soil on a new dam, it will be used on the level. However, during transport it will need to be moved down a slope, and 7 or so tonnes could potentially push the tractor out of control. The more I think about it, the more relevant your question becomes. Thankyou for alerting me to the risk.

    JV

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    Re: Rolling resistance

    Quote Originally Posted by john maddock View Post
    Ha! Well spotted Ex! I hadn't thought about that, but it's obviously a potential trap. Since the roller will be used to consolidate soil on a new dam, it will be used on the level. However, during transport it will need to be moved down a slope, and 7 or so tonnes could potentially push the tractor out of control. The more I think about it, the more relevant your question becomes. Thankyou for alerting me to the risk.

    JV
    I would hate to pick up my newspaper see headline "farmer rampages through Hobart with tractor" . police arrest well known local man John Maddock, who was heard screaming, " my brakes, my brakes, my kingdom for some brakes?"
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    Re: Rolling resistance

    Quote Originally Posted by Exfarmer View Post
    I would hate to pick up my newspaper see headline "farmer rampages through Hobart with tractor" . police arrest well known local man John Maddock, who was heard screaming, " my brakes, my brakes, my kingdom for some brakes?"
    Blood oath, Ex! Me too!

    On tother hand, should a certain politician (or more, for that matter) be standing on a street corner, I'd be very happy to take advantage & change some fat cats into some flat cats! (We have a *very* unneccessary election in a few weeks).

    JV
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    Re: Rolling resistance

    Quote Originally Posted by john maddock View Post
    Blood oath, Ex! Me too!

    On tother hand, should a certain politician (or more, for that matter) be standing on a street corner, I'd be very happy to take advantage & change some fat cats into some flat cats! (We have a *very* unneccessary election in a few weeks).

    JV
    wouldn't we all! We have our fair share. Don't know if the story of our Ex PM David Cameron has hit your shores yet, but it seems he teamed up with an Australian guy to promote his business Greensill which was some type of factoring operation. DC was hoping to take a cut of 60m out of it , thankfully the business went bust and he has not got a penny. Sorry for the 50,000 who lost their jobs through it though
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    Re: Rolling resistance

    Quote Originally Posted by Exfarmer View Post
    wouldn't we all! We have our fair share. Don't know if the story of our Ex PM David Cameron has hit your shores yet, but it seems he teamed up with an Australian guy to promote his business Greensill which was some type of factoring operation. DC was hoping to take a cut of 60m out of it , thankfully the business went bust and he has not got a penny. Sorry for the 50,000 who lost their jobs through it though
    Greensill & Cameron are certainly known here - but not universally. Only those reading the specialist news feeds would be aware.

    I presume the Aus connection is Julie Bishop, our Foreign Minister in the previous il-Liberal government. So far, she is keeping quiet about what she knew and when.
    Crikey had this story recently:

    https://www.crikey.com.au/2021/04/08...ill-questions/

    I have no idea if I can see it because I'm a subscriber, but hopefully it won't be behind a paywall for you.

    It says she was a registered lobbyist for Greensill until she tore up her contract in March, and she was an "advisor to the Board", alongside Cameron.

    Says she arranged a meeting between Greensill & our ex Finance Minister (now the head of the OECD?) in Davos. Crikey finishes by asking 10 questions it would like answered.

    JV
    Last edited by john maddock; 11-04-21 at 10:57 AM. Reason: Typos
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    Re: Rolling resistance

    Quote Originally Posted by john maddock View Post
    Greensill & Cameron are certainly known here - but not universally. Only those reading the specialist news feeds would be aware.

    I presume the Aus connection is Julie Bishop, our Foreign Minister in the previous il-Liberal government. So far, she is keeping quiet about what she knew and when.
    Crikey had this story recently:

    https://www.crikey.com.au/2021/04/08...ill-questions/

    I have no idea if I can see it because I'm a subscriber, but hopefully it won't be behind a paywall for you.

    It says she was a registered lobbyist for Greensill until she tore up her contract in March, and she was an "advisor to the Board", alongside Cameron.

    Says she arranged a meeting between Greensill & our ex Finance Minister (now the head of the OECD?) in Davos. Crikey finishes by asking 10 questions it would like answered.

    JV
    Sadly I cannot access it but I assume he was recruiting through governments across the globe.
    It appears to give the governments an extra source of liquidity which is off the books but it would involve them paying higher rates of interest than it they were borrowing in the normal fashion.
    I understood it was an Australian company but may be wrong.

    AS ever with these companies a few people are taking extremely large sums for doing precious little!
    here in the UK David Cameron had a very clean image up till now.
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    Re: Rolling resistance

    so John, a month later, what did you end up doing?

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    Re: Rolling resistance

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironhead View Post
    so John, a month later, what did you end up doing?
    Nothing! Busy with other work. I found several places in other states which sell used padfoot (sheepsfoot) shells normally used by being clamped around smooth rollers. Priced around AUD3k, plus freight, I can afford that. I have the steel to build a frame and drawbar. Thinking about transport,and keeping Exfarmer's comment in mind, I'm thinking that the front wheels of a truck could be used for transport. Pull the roller up onto timber blocks, bolt the wheels onto the frame and use the tractor's hydraulics to work the brakes.

    Numerous traps I expect, but that's the plan at the moment. Don't hold your breath for action - could be a couple of years off!

    JV
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    Re: Rolling resistance

    Quote Originally Posted by john maddock View Post
    Nothing! Busy with other work. I found several places in other states which sell used padfoot (sheepsfoot) shells normally used by being clamped around smooth rollers. Priced around AUD3k, plus freight, I can afford that. I have the steel to build a frame and drawbar. Thinking about transport,and keeping Exfarmer's comment in mind, I'm thinking that the front wheels of a truck could be used for transport. Pull the roller up onto timber blocks, bolt the wheels onto the frame and use the tractor's hydraulics to work the brakes.

    Numerous traps I expect, but that's the plan at the moment. Don't hold your breath for action - could be a couple of years off!

    JV
    Exfarmer brings up the important bit ,
    Years ago I was talking to a freight train driver. Asked him what was the max weight he could pull. Havn`t a clue, he says, the important thing is what weight I can stop.

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    Re: Rolling resistance

    Quote Originally Posted by Upnorth View Post
    Exfarmer brings up the important bit ,
    Years ago I was talking to a freight train driver. Asked him what was the max weight he could pull. Havn`t a clue, he says, the important thing is what weight I can stop.
    You can relax, Exfarmer & Upnorth.

    Yesterday I bought an Allis Chalmers HD6 dozer, with which to pull the yet-to-be-built roller.

    Looks very much like this one:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZfvUrzqyj4

    1960 model, 50 odd engine h.p, 5 fwd, one rev. gear, coming up to 9000 hrs. Everything works. The winch could be useful for pulling logs, but rippers would have been nice. Fitted with an angle and (limited) tilt blade.

    A curious AC engine, with Lanova ports, which apparently are precombustion chambers opposite the injectors. No preheating system: simply wind the engine with the 24v starter until the combustion chambers get hot enough to fire! That took 3 or 4 minutes yesterday, with air temps around 9C. Started instantly once the engine was warmed up a bit.

    Service and parts manuals come with it - a plus. Don't expect to hear of any disasters for a while; no idea when I'll begin the dam project.

    JV
    Forgot to say that it has a hand clutch, and I note a comment which suggest it's a good idea to throttle down at gear change - saves the transmission a hard time.
    Last edited by john maddock; 26-06-21 at 11:52 PM. Reason: Clarity
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    Re: Rolling resistance

    Quote Originally Posted by john maddock View Post
    Forgot to say that it has a hand clutch, and I note a comment which suggest it's a good idea to throttle down at gear change - saves the transmission a hard time.

    Make a habit of downing the blade, or setting the park brake catch if the blade is removed before dismounting and always, always, put in neutral then engage the hand clutch. Either you'll clip the lever getting off and then have to run along on the track that's now a treadmill! or if the mechanism becomes very worn it was common on IH TD crawlers for the lever/linkage to start wobbling around with the wear and in extreme cases the clutch could start to self engage especially if the clutch was loose and required little pull to overcentre the lever into drive.

    Have you thought of starting a Museum? Seem to be amassing a lot of old exhibits one way or another!
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    Re: Rolling resistance

    Quote Originally Posted by Footsfitter View Post
    Make a habit of downing the blade, or setting the park brake catch if the blade is removed before dismounting and always, always, put in neutral then engage the hand clutch. Either you'll clip the lever getting off and then have to run along on the track that's now a treadmill! or if the mechanism becomes very worn it was common on IH TD crawlers for the lever/linkage to start wobbling around with the wear and in extreme cases the clutch could start to self engage especially if the clutch was loose and required little pull to overcentre the lever into drive.

    Have you thought of starting a Museum? Seem to be amassing a lot of old exhibits one way or another!
    Very good safety points FF. Thank you.

    Museum? Started years ago! My Dad seldom threw anything away - and he taught me well! Toyota Crown cars in various states from registerable to parts only, (if I got a reasonable offer, I'd sell the lot), Mac computers (including an Apple Lisa) not to mention an NCR Century 101 complete system including circuit diagrams (mid 1960s, from memory).

    All this, apart from machinery used on the farm at some stage. My biggest regret was selling a bren gun carrier for scrap as a young man when just a little more stupid than now.

    JV
    Last edited by john maddock; 27-06-21 at 11:24 PM. Reason: Clarity
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    Re: Rolling resistance

    Quote Originally Posted by john maddock View Post
    You can relax, Exfarmer & Upnorth.

    Yesterday I bought an Allis Chalmers HD6 dozer, with which to pull the yet-to-be-built roller.

    Looks very much like this one:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZfvUrzqyj4

    1960 model, 50 odd engine h.p, 5 fwd, one rev. gear, coming up to 9000 hrs. Everything works. The winch could be useful for pulling logs, but rippers would have been nice. Fitted with an angle and (limited) tilt blade.

    A curious AC engine, with Lanova ports, which apparently are precombustion chambers opposite the injectors. No preheating system: simply wind the engine with the 24v starter until the combustion chambers get hot enough to fire! That took 3 or 4 minutes yesterday, with air temps around 9C. Started instantly once the engine was warmed up a bit.

    Service and parts manuals come with it - a plus. Don't expect to hear of any disasters for a while; no idea when I'll begin the dam project.

    JV
    Forgot to say that it has a hand clutch, and I note a comment which suggest it's a good idea to throttle down at gear change - saves the transmission a hard time.
    Does V know that you will soon be loose with one of those?
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    Re: Rolling resistance

    Quote Originally Posted by Exfarmer View Post
    Does V know that you will soon be loose with one of those?
    Affirmative. Say no more!
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    Re: Rolling resistance

    Quote Originally Posted by john maddock View Post
    Affirmative. Say no more!
    on our next visit , I am expecting see a nice level farm like we have here in East Anglia
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    Re: Rolling resistance

    Quote Originally Posted by Exfarmer View Post
    on our next visit , I am expecting see a nice level farm like we have here in East Anglia
    No, no! Can't level the place! I'd lose too much acreage! Looking forward to seeing you, btw.

    JV
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    Re: Rolling resistance

    Quote Originally Posted by john maddock View Post
    No, no! Can't level the place! I'd lose too much acreage! Looking forward to seeing you, btw.

    JV
    I would come tomorrow, but they wont let us in
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    Re: Rolling resistance

    Quote Originally Posted by Exfarmer View Post
    I would come tomorrow, but they wont let us in
    I know. This federal government couldn't raise a sweat in a sauna. Totally useless! Can't organise vaccinations, can't organise quarantine, the Crikey newsletter has published a list of the PM's lies several pages long. Latest trick is to cut the cap of arrivals by 50% coz the hotel quarantine sites organised by the states are not fit for purpose, when there are tens of thousands of Aus citizens who want to come home and cannot. A total disgrace.
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    Re: Rolling resistance

    Quote Originally Posted by john maddock View Post
    I know. This federal government couldn't raise a sweat in a sauna. Totally useless! Can't organise vaccinations, can't organise quarantine, the Crikey newsletter has published a list of the PM's lies several pages long. Latest trick is to cut the cap of arrivals by 50% coz the hotel quarantine sites organised by the states are not fit for purpose, when there are tens of thousands of Aus citizens who want to come home and cannot. A total disgrace.
    Don't worry, the only thing our lot have got right is the vaccine programme.
    We let the Ijndian variant , because our Pm was about to go on Jolly to Delhi and he knew it would have to be postponed if he shut the borders too quickly. As it was 20,000 plus same in from the sub continent before they shut them.
    If you look air our figures about 90 % of cases today are Indian variants, meaning we would be nearing the end of the plague, as it is we now have 50,000 cases a day.
    This means although we are opening up the borders the disease is rampant here as AZ vaccine we use does not give full protection against catching the bug and no sensible country is going to allow us to travel as we will be carriers
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